But... I have realized that antinatalism is, in essence, an extreme form of psychological projection onto an unborn and unknown entity.
What do I mean by this? Well, we all have visions of the future, or perhaps the antinatalist has an overabundance of concern for the future (anxiety, dread, angst). Those of us who have been mired in their misery, unjustifiably so in many cases, have taken their experiences and have created a fictional entity that is an unborn child. — Wallows
The answer is "yes," if you were in power, you would prevent other people from having children. And that is the difference between an idea that is misguided and one that is evil. — T Clark
Your options are... be beholden to the forces of this behemoth technological economic giant and get by with the six or so "goods" to overlook the cirucular productive forces that we are forced into, or do the following- kill yourself, become a part of the underclass (homeless), become some sort of monk/hermit. — schopenhauer1
Despite his bitter protestations, I'm bringing in Bitter Crank because I think he might shed some light on how we are circular forces of production.. He will shrink away from total pessimism on this.. but I think he has some wise insights on the whole shebang. — schopenhauer1
But, your position is inherently based on the subjective experience of suffering or strife, which you try to rationalize into an objective brute fact about existence. Is this at least correct? — Wallows
The unborn aren't suffering. Those born are either suffering, will suffer, or have the potential to suffer. Every human struggles, suffers, ages and dies. You can call this psychological projection, but as a human I have some stake on the claim of what it's like to be one. — Inyenzi
Lots of people have their children taken off them after they are born because they are unfit parents. There is not just one scenario where people intervene in reproduction. — Andrew4Handel
I don't think this whole "you're an anti-natalist because you're depressed" argument is a legitimate one. Whatever the psychological basis of schopenhauer1's beliefs is, he is right to expect us to argue the merits of his ideas. — T Clark
Of course he has the right to say that. He just doesn't have the right to inflict his judgment on the rest of us. — T Clark
I have no problem with this statement of the issue, but anti-natalists, at least as represented here on the forum, take it a lot further. They draw harsh conclusions based on that evaluation, propose a draconian solution, and, some of them at least, want to inflict that solution on others who disagree with them. — T Clark
I can keep going, but I won't. You get the picture. Antinatalism prevents suffering for all, and forcing people into the world. No ONE loses out by not being born, but EVERYONE loses in some way by being born. My inaction to create someone hurts, literally NO ONE. Someone else's action to birth someone, always creates some harm, and if we believe that being deprived is a negative state, there is constant suffering there too. — schopenhauer1
As long as you don't plan on restricting my ability to do that, everything is ok. — T Clark
On the other hand, if you want me to take your ideas seriously and deal with them respectfully, you should consider doing the same for me. A good start would be to acknowledge that your view is only held by a small minority of people and that there are other legitimate ways of seeing things. — T Clark
people cannot choose the historical development and societal institutions/setup that he/she is brought into — schopenhauer1
The quality of life of a yet to be born child is not a totally unknowable, transcendent mystery. As humans, we know the harms (and potential harms) potential humans will face, and we can choose to mitigate these entirely (at least in our own children's sake) by not reproducing. — Inyenzi
You don't know what any individual is going to think about what you consider harms, especially relative to things they consider to be positives. — Terrapin Station
Nor would it matter — schopenhauer1
Depends on who you ask. Mattering is something each individual will make an assessment about, and they can't be right or wrong about what does or doesn't matter to them. — Terrapin Station
They don't exist. — schopenhauer1
Whether something matters is up to the people who do exist. So you can't say something doesn't matter in an unqualified way. — Terrapin Station
But it might matter to people who do exist. You have to ask them to know. — Terrapin Station
It.. what is it here? — schopenhauer1
You know what you were talking about with "it" when you wrote "Nor would it matter," don't you? — Terrapin Station
It doesn't matter.. the assessment of good/bad for something that does not exist. — schopenhauer1
Again, it might matter to people who exist. — Terrapin Station
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