Globalism hasn’t helped the average person to the degree it has benefitted the owner class. It hasn’t helped Joe or Jane Blow at all in the good ol’ USA. — Noah Te Stroete

That's way too broad a brush stroke.

The Dems need to have a clear plan of how they will make Joe and Jane’s life better, and show that Trump has pulled off a con job.

I'm not much of a fan of a bi-partisan political system such as the one currently taking place in the US. The intentional and deliberate aim to enter into the US political arena as a primary means to increase one's personal wealth is allowed. As it should be. Everyone has to make a living, after-all. Politicians salaries are paid by means of government collection.

However, if one's sole motivation for entering into US politics was to intentionally use the experience as means to acquire much more wealth than they could foreseeably acquire by any other means...

Well...

That's a problem.

Doesn’t seem like a fitting analogy to compare this situation to Mandela’s, but have at it. — Noah Te Stroete

Did I?

Show me where, and when I made such a comparison. One can be doing many things when mentioning one's attitude towards what counts as justified aggression.

We're also cross-posting...

I'll hold off a bit.

That's way too broad a brush stroke. — creativesoul

That’s the issue as I see it. If you don’t, then I don’t know what to say. I live in a small town in Wisconsin. That seems to be the issue here. As you may know, Trump won this state by only a few thousand votes mostly from rural areas with his promise of bringing back “millions and millions” of jobs.

He hasn’t delivered and won’t. That was the con job.

One can be doing many things when mentioning one's attitude towards what counts as justified aggression. — creativesoul

Fair enough. I don’t think Mandela would appreciate your invoking his example in this situation, however. That’s just my opinion.

Sorry for the lack of precision. I tend to lump them at that level all together. CEOs, one would expect, would bring proven performance ability.

That's way too broad a brush stroke.
— creativesoul

That’s the issue as I see it. If you don’t, then I don’t know what to say. I live in a small town in Wisconsin. That seems to be the issue here. As you may know, Trump won this state by only a few thousand votes mostly from rural areas with his promise of bringing back “millions and millions” of jobs.

He hasn’t delivered and won’t. That was the con job. — Noah Te Stroete

I do not disagree. That's unacceptable for Trump to have made promises and not kept them.

However...

It quite simply does not follow from that that globalism hasn't helped John and Jane Doe at all. Lot's of people have been helped. Lots of people have been harmed as well. The number of American people who have been harmed was not given the utmost priority in the minds of the legislators long before Trump. Those pieces of legislation are part of the problem.

Trump promised to bring back jobs to places that used to have more of them. Not all of those job losses were avoidable. None of those jobs will ever return. New American Industry is quite possible. Easily attainable actually. It would take a genuine concerted effort and the right steps.

The problem is not globalism. The problem was it's implementation. Legislation originally touted and/or proposed as a means for increasing one's available choices to inexpensive goods and services took people's livelihoods away unnecessarily so. In cases just like the one you're describing, as a result of being financially motivated by profit margin alone, many corporations and/or employers in the building trades and/or manufacturing sectors were legally incentivized to put corporate profit above and beyond the livelihood of the workers and their families by moving operations overseas and/or knowingly hiring immigrant workers(documented and undocumented).

Ohio, for example, has had more than it's fair share of corporations busted for having an entire workforce riddled with undocumented immigrants. Koch Foods comes to mind. I don't think that there is a connection to the infamous Koch Bros.

Many lost their livelihood and future due to trade policies. Some families lost the ability to carry on traditions. Imported goods do not have the same positive monetary benefits to everyday Americans that domestically sourced goods have. They are not a source of American employment opportunity aside from having some profit potential when sold at markup to the right people.

There's nothing wrong with increasing the general populations' available choices.

There's something wrong with a representative government that is not taking actions that could be, and thus ought be, easily taken that would inevitably result in dramatically increasing the overall qualitative state of most Americans. As a bonus, all of those disproportionately negatively affected/effected Americans could also have a return to comfortable lifestyles where people co-exist in harmonious fashion. Infrastructure? American Industry. Building trades. Manufacturing. All of these things have direct positive long term effects/affects on American cities, towns, and people.

We could easily achieve this. We don't. We create the socio-economic landscape.



Trump may lie. Trump's father may have been reported to have signed his name at a KKK sponsored function/event. Trump may say all sorts of shit that's unacceptable to many and/or most Americans. Trump may be making money hand over first as a direct result of being president. Trump may be all sorts of things. Trump may have profit as the sole motive for doing most things he does. Financial gains may be one of the main reasons Trump ran for office... to increase the financial value of his namesake.

Anyone trustworthy seen his personal financial documents. I mean, has anyone looked? Is there any other way to know? Clearly, what's been happening justifies our knowing if actual records clearly show nefarious activities.

Legally, he doesn't have to show such things. Fifth amendment rights.

Legally, I suppose several scenarios are plausible. He's not broken any laws, so there's nothing that can be done to remove him aside from allowing the eligible voters that we allow to be included to do so. Or, perhaps he has, but he's just following in the footsteps of those before him. He's perfectly capable of invoking precedent without penalty.

Trump is a symptom.

Emoluments being ignored.

Corporate entities writing laws which place corporate interest above the American public's while simultaneously creating the conditions that will require choosing between. Politicians hiring them to write such laws and then adopting/passing them.

Allowing people to decide the fate of public schools who do not care enough about the children to guarantee the best possible education and opportunity for all of the kids that have no better choice.

There are all sorts of problems. Trump is not one of them. He is a symptom. He is the result.

Trump is a symptom. — creativesoul

Yet it's obvious that what is infected is the Republican party. It simply cannot shake the Trump disease.

I just came back from a trip with my family to Washington DC and New York (my son wanted to visit the US to the horror of his mother). Visited Capitol Hill and waited in line to see from the gallery the House of Representatives in session. When we got there only a few members were talking their time to the empty seats as it was a Friday, but the message of a Republican member still showed how far US politics has gone. This older Republican politician (don't know his name) started his attack on the FBI on how politicized it has become (yet remembered to mention Hoover as a historical example) and how it's leadership went solely after then the Republican candidate. (Yes, who would remember anymore Comey's October surprise?)

It was sobering to listen (with your own ears) what US politics has become during the age of Trump. Also what was noteworthy how the safety procedures have tightened after 9/11 as I had visited last time the place in the 1990's. At least people, even foreigners, can go and listen to what is said.

I don’t think Mandela would appreciate your invoking his example in this situation, however. That’s just my opinion. — Noah Te Stroete

I think Mandela and I would get along just fine. I didn't invoke 'his example'(whatever that is supposed to mean).

Yet it's obvious that what is infected is the Republican party. It simply cannot shake the Trump disease. — ssu

Trump is not the problem.

It was sobering to listen (with your own ears) what US politics has become during the age of Trump. — ssu

The above presupposes new problems. Trump is not the problem.

It's also not the just the US that has these problems. There are farce governments called "democracies" all over the world that share the same despicable amount of monetary corruption.

Trump is not the problem. — creativesoul

It’s useless for people to keep condemning Trump’s racism. It’s one of the things that got him there - he gives voice to things that nobody is supposed to say, but that clearly enough people believe to keep him in office. Trump’s racist comments should just be completely ignored; as long as they’re news, you’re just playing his game. — Wayfarer

These statements are shocking. Trump is most definitely a huge problem, not merely a symptom, and that's really bad advice from Wayfarer.

Basically corruption has been made quite legal in the US and Americans are totally OK with it. Just like they are with the most expensive health care system in the World. Corruption has likely increased a bit with Trump.

Or at least with inept players as Trump's son-in-law, the corruption is even more evident and straight forward than with others. What was telling is that Trump was himself so surprised that his "drain the swamp" comment got so much response. Trump supporters simply pin totally ludicrous hopes to the guy and are basically unified about their hatred of the democrats. And since any kind of critical view of the doings of the Trump administration is "pinko-liberal media propaganda", anything will go.

Especially if the country stays out of recession.

If you don't want Trump reelected, push for a centrist Democrat that will appeal to the working class
— Relativist

This is so fucking funny because the Democrats nominated Clinton who was a centrist and she nevertheless lost, but sure let's just try again for a banal centrist Democrat with no actual ideas other than being anti-Trump. Two of the top polling Democratic candidates are Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, and many of the other candidates have had to mimic their Leftist politics to gain traction because that's exactly where the conversation within the Democratic party has been going towards, and needs to lean into.

The GOP will call literally anyone in the Democratic party a socialist. They will say that the Democratic nominee is calling for open borders regardless of the person's actually border proposals. They will say whatever the fuck they want about the Democratic candidate's policies around healthcare and taxation regardless of the actual content of their proposals. Where have you been in the last ten year? The GOP will lie and lie and lie in order to appeal and rally a segment of voters. Literally a decade ago they said that Obama's ACA would lead to "death panels". So are you kidding me? Who the fuck cares about GOP/Trump supporters and what they think? This sort of hand-wringing is what has helped lead to GOP political power despite being an essentially defeated party back in 2008.

The way to win is to animate the Democratic base is with actual progressive policy proposals on issues people actually care about, such as Climate Change, Income Inequality, Healthcare, and Gun Control (and what's interesting is how different the 2018 voter issues are compared with the 2014 issues here....Climate Change and Healthcare have become top concerns now).

Further, Independents need to be inspired. They weren't inspired by Clinton. Only 42% of Independent voters voted for Clinton vs. 46% who voted Trump. Compare this with Obama's inspirational and progressive campaign in 2008 when he won 52% of the Independent vote vs. McCain's 44%.

What's also funny (read: absurd, tragic, rip my eyeballs out) is that NO ONE is telling the GOP be more moderate in order to appeal to more voters. Trump's strategy in the past two years has been to double down in appealing to the voting bloc that elected him to office, at the expense of alienating his more skeptic voters. Attendants at his rally yesterday yelled "Send Her Back" towards an elected congresswoman who is an American citizen for fuck's sake. This is the only president since national polling came about, who has never achieved over 50% approval. We also just had a HUGE rebuke of Trumpism in the form of the Midterms where Democrats won the biggest seat turnover in Congress since the early 70s. — Maw

:clap:

Biden didn't run in the last campaign but seems to me most electable. — Wayfarer

Bookies gave 'hard-left' Jeremy Corbyn odds of 1/100 of becoming leader of the Labour party. He was labeled as unelectable.

Then what happened next? He wiped the floor with all other contenders, and outperformed expectations in the 2015 general election, winning a significantly larger share of the vote than what Tony Blair achieved when he took power in 2005.

The Conservatives failed to secure a majority, and Theresa May faced calls to stand down.

There's no way that any of the other bland and more moderate candidates would have drawn the huge crowds and number of supporters that Jeremy Corbyn has.

So this view that the centrist, moderate candidate is the most electable strikes me as naive. Was Trump centrist or moderate? Hardly.

The Democrats, if they have any sense, should not repeat the failed strategy they employed the last time.

What's also funny (read: absurd, tragic, rip my eyeballs out) is that NO ONE is telling the GOP be more moderate in order to appeal to more voters. — Maw

NO ONE is telling in either of the two parties to be more moderate. That (being moderate) is seen as a losing strategy.

Let's face the reality: Trump didn't believe he was going to win and he surely doesn't believe at all that he could enlarge his base. Hence he focuses on his hardcore supporters and hopes (or simply assumes) that other Republicans will have to follow, or that the democrats will push other Republicans to vote for him. Hence the portrayal of democrats being socialists who hate America. The "Send her back"-chant is the new normal, typical Trump with the reverses now, but you'll hear it later. For his hardcore supporters Trump truly needs to be outrageous.

Trump didn't believe he was going to win and he surely doesn't believe at all that he could enlarge his base. — ssu

It seems some think that enlarging his base is exactly the point.

Conventional wisdom holds that Trump’s “premeditated racism” is designed to energise his base, often white people without college degrees in the industrial midwest. Douglas sees it differently.

“I don’t think he’s after his base. I think he’s after the moderate who’s not yet comfortable with this conversation

“He is positioning these four women as a socialist movement and he did it with Obama as well. So he is creating this not for his base. His base has decided. This is the centrist that he’s after.” — Andrea Douglas

The way to win is to animate the Democratic base is with actual progressive policy proposals on issues people actually care about, such as Climate Change, Income Inequality, Healthcare, and Gun Control (and what's interesting is how different the 2018 voter issues are compared with the 2014 issues here....Climate Change and Healthcare have become top concerns now). — Maw

Good point. I think people want, need, to hear a positive message.
One that inspires hope for the present and future, instead of this miserable, regressive and divisive rhetoric.
America Smiles Better :grin:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow%27s_miles_better

NO ONE is telling in either of the two parties to be more moderate. That (being moderate) is seen as a losing strategy. — ssu

Except for not one, not two, not three, but at least four, regular NYT Op-Ed columnists written just in the last month or so (and in fact both Bret Stephens and David Brooks had to write immediate follow ups that were just as bad as their originals). Similar articles have been written about in the Washington Post and The Atlantic. This is a fairly wide-spread talking point among a small segment of well-to-do Centrists who despise the GOP's reactionary social views, but (even more so) abhor the Democrat's leftward critique of Capitalism, and Never Trump Republicans, who like most of Trump's policies but believe he's too unrefined and outspoken. Neither should have any say in what direction the Democrats should move towards, given the state of their own houses.

From where i’m sitting the only party that is talking about racism are the democrats. If you see the world based on the color of ones skin, well, that kinda makes you a racist. The democrats see everting as a race issue. Plus, the pure hatred and real violence are all coming from the democrats. They have totally self destructed and are making fools of themselves like little children calling everyone names. They set these standards for Trump but when it comes to themselves, well, by any means necessary. Sound like a bunch of baby nazis. Get over it, please.

Indeed, when you stop calling folks out for racism, they stop being racist. Kind of like when you stop arresting thieves, they stop stealing shit. In fact, if the police would just give out donuts to these fine people instead of trying to put them in jail, we'd never have any thievery in the first place. Fucking baby Nazis.

There are all sorts of problems. Trump is not one of them. He is a symptom. He is the result. — creativesoul

One of the symptoms of genital Herpes (a notable feature of Trump's alternative Vietnam) are small red blisters that break open and cause sores. They are the result of the disease. Funnily enough, like Trump, they are also ugly, painful, and most definitely a problem.

It seems some think that enlarging his base is exactly the point. — Amity

More of the same is enlarging your base? Interesting.

To depict the democrats to be woke socialists who'll ruin the country is very conventional GOP politics, so if Ms Douglas assumes this to be appeasing the moderates... that's a quite an interesting definition on what moderates are.

Except for not one, not two, not three, but at least four, regular NYT Op-Ed columnists written just in the last month or so (and in fact both Bret Stephens and David Brooks had to write immediate follow ups that were just as bad as their originals). Similar articles have been written about in the Washington Post and The Atlantic. — Maw

Maw, just look at how the vitriolic discourse has gone and will (in reality) go. To argue about getting the moderates or a democratic candidate getting the Trump voters is theoretically logical, but in real terms I wouldn't be so sure.

Above all, the democratic candidate will have to win the candidacy, and is there the winning strategy be to go lure the moderate Republicans?

One of the symptoms of genital Herpes (a notable feature of Trump's alternative Vietnam) are small red blisters that break open and cause sores. They are the result of the disease. Funnily enough, like Trump, they are also ugly, painful, and most definitely a problem. — Baden

Well said. Hopefully that'll shut him up from repeating that silly point ad nauseam.

One of the symptoms of genital Herpes (a notable feature of Trump's alternative Vietnam) are small red blisters that break open and cause sores. They are the result of the disease. Funnily enough, like Trump, they are also ugly, painful, and most definitely a problem. — Baden

At least someone is trying...

Blisters are manifestations of the herpes virus. The virus causes blisters. The virus is the problem. The problem can be avoided to begin with, but take this analogy too far(equate Trump to the virus) and one can never be rid of Trump(the virus).

If Trump is the result of contracting the virus(if he's the blistering), then Trump's blistering racial undertones and overtones are manifestations of racist sentiments and thought that have been around since long before the first continental congress. The virus - here - would be racist thought/belief.

Racism is a problem. It's manifested in Trump. It's not the only problem and Valtrex won't help the others.

Trump is not the problem.

One of the symptoms of genital Herpes (a notable feature of Trump's alternative Vietnam) are small red blisters that break open and cause sores. They are the result of the disease. Funnily enough, like Trump, they are also ugly, painful, and most definitely a problem.
— Baden

Well said. Hopefully that'll shut him up from repeating that silly point ad nauseam. — S

Somewhere, out there, is a playground in need of someone to push the merry go round.

Somewhere, out there, is a playground in need of someone to push the merry go round. — creativesoul

Huh? Me? Oh no. You see, I'm not the problem. There are all sorts of problems, but I'm not one of them.

Basically corruption has been made quite legal in the US and Americans are totally OK with it. Just like they are with the most expensive health care system in the World. Corruption has likely increased a bit with Trump.

Or at least with inept players as Trump's son-in-law, the corruption is even more evident and straight forward than with others. What was telling is that Trump was himself so surprised that his "drain the swamp" comment got so much response. Trump supporters simply pin totally ludicrous hopes to the guy and are basically unified about their hatred of the democrats. And since any kind of critical view of the doings of the Trump administration is "pinko-liberal media propaganda", anything will go.

Especially if the country stays out of recession. — ssu

This is better, in terms of direction...

I'm less certain that Americans are ok with monetary corruption in government, and more certain that there is an overwhelming majority of citizens who do not believe that there is anything that can be done about it. Healthcare is part of that corruption. Legislation written and passed by unelected individuals acting on behalf of corporate profits(aka 'big pharma').

The bi-partisan system is corrupt... both sides.

Jim Comey suffered from disbelief when his eyes were opened.

What do Jeremy Corbyn and Trump have in common in terms of message... campaign promises?

Are they both accused of nationalism?