I suggest that choices are determined irrespective of whether or not libertarian free will exists. Reflect on any past choice, and think about why you made it. If those are really the reason for the decision, then you could not have possibly made a different decision given the fact that those reasons were present. — Relativist
Could you have then picked B? If you say “yes I could have controlled the influence to pick A and still picked B” I would then again ask “why didn’t you”. This final “why didn’t you” you obviously don’t know the answer to. You can do this for any choice — khaled
If consciousness has no causal role and is merely epiphenomenal, what is the point of the experience of pain? Why would our brains be "programmed" to feel pain if it has no causal function and everything is simply deterministic? — Michael McMahon
but what you would consider as more of a choice? — Relativist
Yes but the WAY it does so seems random. Sure it incorporates your beliefs and attitudes etc but whenever a decision is close and you can’t tell exactly way you picked A rather than B that’s just a random choice is it not? — khaled
Your experiment seems to be proof that we allow unimportant decisions to be randomly determined. — Possibility
Well I guess that’s progress. — khaled
I don't know. That's what I'm asking people who argue for free will. I don't get the concept of "free" and I need them to explain it to me in a way that doesn't boil down to "a mix of random and determined" which I don't think is free. — khaled
So, there has to be some use to consciousness; however, the decisions/thoughts seemingly carried out instantly therein were already finished and done beforehand. The subconscious analysis takes 300-500 milliseconds, which is a delay, along with the speed of light delay, which is quite short. — PoeticUniverse
I am still wondering why it would matter that the choice first happens subconsciously, given that it still originates in the same brain. — Echarmion
Some choices are epistemically random.
Do you know why the word "epistemically" is in that sentence? — Terrapin Station
What happened to me explaining biasing a couple times? There's something other than 50/50 random and determined. — Terrapin Station
I hope so. That's what I kept referring to when I said true randomness. Randomness that is not an approximation due to our lack of knowledge — khaled
I don't know where you're getting the idea from that biasing is a decision that's "completely random." I certainly didn't write anything like that. — Terrapin Station
? — Terrapin Station
↪Relativist
but what you would consider as more of a choice?
— Relativist
I don't know. That's what I'm asking people who argue for free will. I don't get the concept of "free" and I need them to explain it to me in a way that doesn't boil down to "a mix of random and determined" which I don't think is free. — khaled
Why? — Terrapin Station
ou took it from there and I assumed you had read our conversation beforehand — khaled
For any decision you can ask "could you have done (biased the decision) otherwise?", if the answer is no then the decision is not free. For every decision for which you answered "yes" you can ask "why didn't you?". The answer to "why didn't you?" is unknown as presenting any justification for why you chose the option you chose doesn't tell me why you didn't choose the other option if you could have. So you don't know why you chose to bias a particular option in a particular way, even if you know the evidence that led you to that decision (because you can't answer "why didn't you?"). Since you don't know why you chose to bias an option in a particular way even though alternatives were available the decision must have been random. — khaled
First, if you couldn't have gone another way, it's not actually a decision/choice. — Terrapin Station
"presenting any justification for why you chose the option you chose doesn't tell me why you didn't choose the other option if you could have" because that doesn't make any sense. Why wouldn't a justification tell you why someone chose one option over another? — Terrapin Station
You don't seem to understand the idea of biasing. You seem to just be putting the word into sentences because I brought it up. — Terrapin Station
Because the other option also has justification that could have been used. — khaled
What? What justification, coming from where? — Terrapin Station
Assume you're picking between two close options. — khaled
You could have picked the other option yes? So if you had picked the other option and I asked you for "why didn't you pick the first" You'd have justificaiton for that yes? — khaled
Probably, but that justification doesn't exist when you didn't pick that option — Terrapin Station
How can justification "not exist". — khaled
Assume you thought of justifications for two options A and B and then picked B. Why didn't you pick A? Would presenting justifications for B be satisfactory for answering that question? — khaled
First, this isn't the case you were presenting. — Terrapin Station
But if you had equal justification — Terrapin Station
I never said equal — khaled
If they're not equal to the bearer, then it would be inexplicable why you'd not be able to understand why the justification for the choice made ruled out the other — Terrapin Station
So if the justification for A completely rules out B could the person have picked B? — khaled
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