What your reaction betrays is your and the average American's inability to have a conversation with people you don't agree with. If the US is that hopeless that you can't even muster the effort to engage fellow citizens you're better of moving to Mexico. — Benkei

As I'm sure you're well aware, I can and have had multiple conversations with people I've disagreed with, on this very forum and elsewhere, on political topics such as immigration, abortion, wealth inequality, healthcare etc., but that's ultimately irrelevant when faced with the fact that a political party has tied itself, Gordian-like, to morally untenable positions regarding immigration, healthcare, abortion, and attitudes towards the rich and the poor. There is is no "common ground" no "middle position" to adjudicate with people who are content to have their immigrant neighbors ripped from their families and sent to strange countries to die, have children separated, likely indefinitely, from their parents and placed in inhumane conditions. There is no "middle ground" to be found with people who believe that abortion should be banned or severely restricted, or that it is morally acceptable that people can go bankrupt from healthcare or simply die because of an inability to pay for it. And it's certainly not acceptable to cordially engage with a fellow citizen who is part of a party that has a 91% approval rating for a man that, it has recently been discovered, inquired if the US could "shoot migrants in the legs" to deter them from entering the states.

Of course, the GOP has engaging in power politics for decades - increasingly so in the last ten years - and yet it's always the Left or liberals that are admonished for not reaching across the aisle, as if that's a winning strategy in these increasingly polarize ideological times. Sorry, I personally find it morally abhorrent to work with a nascent Nazi party.

The whistleblower complaint alleges Trump “sought to pressure the Ukrainian leader to take actions to help the President's 2020 reelection bid.” — NOS4A2

He did. You can read the transcript.

I did read it. No pressure on the transcript, no pressure according to Ukrainian president, nothing regarding the 2020 or future elections election, the favor he asked about was in regards to the 2016 election, both the transcript and whistleblower complaint were declassified and made public. It appears all you’ve done is assumed motives, without evidence.

I think Stephen Miller has his hand up your ass and you're his ventriloquist's dummy.

The insults are as soft as Schiff’s chin. It’s no wonder you guys move your mouth like him.

Seems to me even Trump supporters would have to recognise that he's really stuffed it up this time - that he had managed to escape the Mueller Report, but in trying to prove it was all a hoax he's now in an even worse position.

The thing is, he really does seem to believe this conspiracy theory - that the DNC and Ukraine conspired with Italian agents AND the FBI AND the CIA to frame the Russians and hang it on Trump. Giuliani is going on about how the DNC 'framed' Trump. It's beyond preposterous. How can you possibly run the government when the Chief Executive is basically subverting the agencies in support of lunatic fringe theories? And in so doing he's stoking conflict between the AG, the Secretary of State, their own departments and the whole intelligence community.

It appears all you’ve done is assumed motives, without evidence. — NOS4A2

And yet, you're fine with Trump doing exactly that with regard to Biden.

Regarding Trump's offenses, we also have the whistleblower report, which provides the damning context. This is certainly not proof, but it is more than adequate cause to investigate further.

Sorry, I personally find it morally abhorrent to work with a nascent Nazi party. — Maw

I've found it terrifying how much trump reminds me of Hitler. And he's whipping his supporters up into an irrational frenzy of hatred and anger. And yes, as you noted, we're seeing Nazi-like tactics used on those he considers "inferior races." Butter wouldn't melt in his mouth: he's a cold-blooded, reptilian-brained psychopath.

As I'm sure you're well aware, I can and have had multiple conversations with people I've disagreed with, on this very forum and elsewhere, on political topics such as immigration, abortion, wealth inequality, healthcare etc., but that's ultimately irrelevant when faced with the fact that a political party has tied itself, Gordian-like, to morally untenable positions regarding immigration, healthcare, abortion, and attitudes towards the rich and the poor. There is is no "common ground" no "middle position" to adjudicate with people who are content to have their immigrant neighbors ripped from their families and sent to strange countries to die, have children separated, likely indefinitely, from their parents and placed in inhumane conditions. There is no "middle ground" to be found with people who believe that abortion should be banned or severely restricted, or that it is morally acceptable that people can go bankrupt from healthcare or simply die because of an inability to pay for it. And it's certainly not acceptable to cordially engage with a fellow citizen who is part of a party that has a 91% approval rating for a man that, it has recently been discovered, inquired if the US could "shoot migrants in the legs" to deter them from entering the states.

Of course, the GOP has engaging in power politics for decades - increasingly so in the last ten years - and yet it's always the Left or liberals that are admonished for not reaching across the aisle, as if that's a winning strategy in these increasingly polarize ideological times. Sorry, I personally find it morally abhorrent to work with a nascent Nazi party. — Maw

Nice. You've reduced the identity of about half of the population to a few social stances and declared you'll never talk to them. How's that working out for you? Convinced anyone to vote Democrat yet by shaming them for being Republican?

Keep up the useless work and clap yourself on the back for being so righteously ineffectual.

EDIT: For what it's worth. Engaging is not the same as convincing. If you don't listen to others, they certainly won't listen to you.

I've found it terrifying how much trump reminds me of Hitler. — uncanni

I think it's pretty abhorrent to compare Trump with Hitler, really. Hitler could be characterised as an evil genius, Trump will never be a genius, and the kind of evil he embodies arises more from ignorance than malevolence, as such. I think he's a lot more like Mr Magoo.

Mr. Magoo, sometimes given his first name Quincy, is a fictional cartoon character created at the UPA animation studio in 1949. Voiced by Jim Backus, Mr. Magoo is a wealthy, short-statured retiree who gets into a series of comical situations as a result of his extreme near-sightedness, compounded by his stubborn refusal to admit the problem. However, through uncanny streaks of luck, the situation always seems to work itself out for him, leaving him no worse than before.

Although not so benevolent, and probably, in the long run, not so lucky, either.

Trump is a perfectly normal American person.

The treatment of science by the Trump administration has hit a “crisis point” where research findings are manipulated for political gain, special interests are given improper influence and scientists are targeted for ideological reasons, a nonpartisan taskforce of former government officials has warned.

Safeguards meant to ensure that government research is objective and fully available to the public have been “steadily weakening” under recent administrations and are now at a nadir under Trump, according to a report released on Thursday by the National Task Force on Rule of Law and Democracy.

There are now “almost weekly violations” of previously cherished norms, the report states, with the current administration attempting “not only to politicize scientific and technical research on a range of topics, but also, at times, to undermine the value of objective facts themselves. 1

All perfectly normal, of course.

Yes, it is. The faster people stop pathologizing Trump - and those who support him - the better they will be able to grasp Trump as a political phenomenon requiring political response. Trump is normal. Trump is exactly representative of the American polis. The consistent attempt to see Trump as an aberration is the refusal to recognise how fucked up normal is to begin with. Pathologizing Trump is the lazy response to what is happening right now. It is a political paralytic. Every time people focus on Trump's personality, Trump wins.

:up: As demonstrated by the consistent demonizing by the left of the right and vice versa. It's only that I'd sooner agree with policies that Bernie, Warren and AOC bring up that I tend to argue more regularly in their favour but I linked and quoted that Princeton study for a reason.

Nice. You've reduced the identity of about half of the population to a few social stances and declared you'll never talk to them. How's that working out for you? — Benkei

Working out pretty good since only 24% of Americans consider themselves Republicans, not "half of the population". Either way, I'm obviously generalizing, certainly not every Republican voter feels the same way - but to circle back my original point, why should political representatives care what this segment of the population - particularly those who do believe in what I've outlined - think about impeachment? They shouldn't. Instead they should convince and mobilize both Democratic voters and left leaning independent, not those who vote for or sympathize with a Nazi party.

... stop pathologizing Trump... — StreetlightX

I agree. A true pathology would absolve him of responsibility.

Trump is a perfectly normal American person. — StreetlightX

Rather than getting into the question of what is normal in its various senses I think it is more productive to focus on what is, as a minimum, acceptable behavior for the president.

The character of a person should be given much consideration when deciding who would be a suitable president. When expediency is prized and character ignored we end up with someone like Trump. When public spiritedness is regarded as a quaint notion that plays no part in political realities we end up with someone who is avaricious, self-serving, and vindictive, we end up with Trump.

Rather than getting into the question of what is normal in its various senses I think it is more productive to focus on what is, as a minimum, acceptable behavior for the president.

The character of a person should be given much consideration when deciding who would be a suitable president. When expediency is prized and character ignored we end up with someone like Trump. When public spiritedness is regarded as a quaint notion that plays no part in political realities we end up with someone who is avaricious, self-serving, and vindictive, we end up — Fooloso4

Don't care about any of this, at all, in the slightest. 'Character' is another distraction made for dupes. Consider instead giving a shit about the relaxing of factory line speeds for pig slaughterhouses, put into place just over a week ago. Consider instead the roughly 85 various policy rollbacks on environmental protections undertaken by his administration so far, including the clean water protections just under a month ago. Consider instead the appointment of the roughly 150 lifetime tenure judges that will transform the US judiciary in unfathomable ways. Or consider the relaxation of the Johnston amendments that enabled Churches to play far bigger roles in political life than they could before. Or the relaxation of the Dodd-Frank regulations put in place to stop another financial crisis. Or the concentration camps. And a thousand other things. By comparison, I couldn't give a fuck about Trump's character, and neither should anyone else.

Chew on this shit: https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/10/3/20895389/warrens-plan-for-workers and not Trump's 'behaviour'. Jesus what fucking useless thing to worry oneself about.

---

Perhaps a new rule when talking about Trump might be a good idea: if someone can't talk about Trump without at the same time talking about Muller, Russia, Putin, Ukraine, Biden, 'fascism', Giuliani, Pompeo, Hitler, whistle-blowers, Trump's media gaffes, or his use of language, then one should probably shut the fuck up.

'Character' is another distraction made for dupes. Consider instead giving a shit about — StreetlightX

Do you not see the disconnect? If Trump's interests were not limited to self-interest he would give a shit about such things and would not roll back regulations regarding work conditions and the environment, and would not support the move to determine the make up of the judiciary along ideological lines. It is his character that determines what he does.

Consider instead the roughly 85 various policy rollbacks on environmental protections undertaken by his administration so far, including the clean water protections just under a month ago. Consider instead the appointment of the roughly 150 lifetime tenure judges that will transform the US judiciary in unfathomable ways. Or consider the relaxation of the Johnston amendments that enabled Churches to play far bigger roles in political life than they could before. Or the relaxation of the Dodd-Frank regulations put in place to stop another financial crisis. Or the concentration camps. And a thousand other things. By comparison, I couldn't give a fuck about Trump's character, and neither should anyone else. — StreetlightX

Here's the reason he's got the uncritical support of the GOP. He's the perfect distraction while shit is happening.

It is his character that determines what he does. — Fooloso4

Oh my God please never talk about politics again, people like you are why Trump can get away with what he does.

This makes no sense. It should be evident from my posts in this topic that I strongly oppose Trump and what he does. Everything he does is determined by his character. The same is true for the rest of us.

Do you think that Warren's reform platform is independent of her character? Would she propose such things if they did not reflect her values, public spiritedness, and regard for others? Would her promises mean anything if she lacked honesty and integrity?

But also the character of society, right? In a theocracy, Trump would be a bishop (if possible). In a military state, he'd be a warlord. He's in the US, so he's a freaking billionaire.

I think he'd find the way to be prominent in any world we dropped him in, with some luck.

And yet, you're fine with Trump doing exactly that with regard to Biden.

Regarding Trump's offenses, we also have the whistleblower report, which provides the damning context. This is certainly not proof, but it is more than adequate cause to investigate further.

Neither the “whistleblower” or IG Atkinson saw the transcript of the call. It’s all gossip. It’s inadequate.

Yes, the character of the regime. I agree with Plato regarding the degeneration of democracy and tyranny. It is only in such a condition that someone like Trump could be elected.

But modern American democracy is not the same as ancient democracy. It is a mixed regime and may be able to correct its course. If, as some say, Trump is just a symptom then it is a symptom that has its own causal consequences. One sign for hopefulness is the faction at Fox News over the impeachment inquiry. If Fox is an important opinion maker and opinions at Fox differ then, without a consistent, unified message some will give more weight to those who report the news rather than to those who spin it and the difference will become more obvious.

The importance of the impeachment is something that will become more apparent as things develop, not simply with regard to extent of the corruption of this administration but with regard to larger questions of governance and political philosophy.

Don't care about any of this, at all, in the slightest. 'Character' is another distraction made for dupes. — StreetlightX

If your political system is a representative democracy, the character of the people you elect matters. It might actually be the most important thing. You don't elect representatives to micromanage every one of their decisions. You elect them so they will make the right decisions in your name.

You're cheerleaders at your own bloody funerals. Character? My God no wonder the world is burning.

Trump is a perfectly normal American person.

American as apple pie. Unfortunately he also represents much of what people hate about America: the reality tv, the pro-wrestling, the beauty pageant, the fast food, the fast and loose talk.

To snobs, he is an embarrassment to the world. When he spoke at the UN a while back and those present let out a laugh, we were told “the world is laughing at Trump”, as if the political elite in the UN general assembly, some of whom are tinpot dictators, represented the world. It was routine snobbery.

But I hope that’s turning around, According to Gallup, “Trump's better ratings on issues than on character distinguish him from Bush and Obama, who were both rated significantly better on character than on issues.” Perhaps “character” isn’t such a selling point any longer, especially when rough work is to be done,

https://news.gallup.com/poll/257819/trump-character-ratings-improved-weakness.aspx

To snobs, he is an embarrassment to the world. When he spoke at the UN a while back and those present let out a laugh, we were told “the world is laughing at Trump”, as if the political elite in the UN general assembly, some of whom are tinpot dictators, represented the world. It was routine snobbery. — NOS4A2

You don’t need to be a snob to laugh at buffoonery, and his level of buffoonery in not normal.

Character? My God no wonder the world is burning. — StreetlightX

Just what is it that you think character entails and why do you think it does not matter?

Character entails nothing. Character is for gossip magazines, TV reality shows, and children's fairytales. Good Guys and Bad Guys. Only the politically infantilized talk about character as if it meant anything at all.