You don't see an ethical issue with removing any protection children would have against psychological abuse from their parents? — Benkei
Correct. — Terrapin Station
For one, I don't consider any psychological states to be forced by environmental factors such as speech, and I only have an ethical problem with nonconsensual force. — Terrapin Station
Psychological abuse is a real problem and it's not just limited to child abuse but that's an example where the State can (and will) step in by separating the children from abusive parents. — Benkei
Uhm. Why must it be forced (whatever that means) and why not "caused"? — Benkei
All thought is caused by speech that we learned from others. — Benkei
Work across various academic disciplines has converged on the view that morality arises from the integration of both innate abilities which are shaped by natural selection and deliberative processes that interact with social environments and cultural exposure
Not a claim that I agree with in the slightest.
For one, I don't agree that all thought is linguistic, and I don't think that meaning is linguistic, either. — Terrapin Station
Right... so numerous neuroscientists and psychologists have established the link between abusive language and behavioural issues with children. — Benkei
You are just pretending it doesn't exist by claiming only a specific type of causality exists. — Benkei
Offering up such a persuasive definition is just semantics and ignores the work in the field of psychology. — Benkei
Those consequences have been documented and scientifically proved. — Benkei
Your disagreement with facts is noted but can be ignored as inconsequential. — Benkei
And all those people working in advertisement and speech writers are really not influencing anything. — Benkei
So putting aside the epistemological issues for a moment, what I said, and I shouldn't have to repeat this, is that I brought up force because per my dispositions, my intuitive moral feelings, that's the only thing that I find morally objectionable. So if we're not claiming force in those situations, I don't find it morally objectionable, whatever other things, exactly, we're claiming. — Terrapin Station
So your free speech absolutism cannot work because it assumes conditions that don't exist. — Benkei
We are disagreeing on facts — Benkei
Here's a thought experiment:
99 persons say punching someone in the face should be allowed.
1 Terrapin Station says it shouldn't.
TS is welcome to his opinion but is punched in the face nevertheless. — Benkei
Yes, whatever should that be showing? Maybe think about it before replying. — Benkei
No, my speech doesn't affect your psychological state any ways so it doesn't make you wonder or think in any case. — Benkei
I often do not receive notifications for posts you respond to. — Terrapin Station
It's not clear just from that text that they're claiming something akin to "Moral stances of type x (that is, of a certain complexity and/or specificity) must be based on moral stances of type y (of less complexity/specificity), even if moral stances of type y are unconscious," which is what you were claiming. — Terrapin Station
Part of examining just how they're defining terms would be looking at whether they'd "define away" someone intuiting moral stance M, where it's not consciously based on any other moral stance, despite being of type x (a certain complexity and/or specificity), as "not being morality" because it's not meeting some requirement or other — Terrapin Station
So, the main thing you'd need to explain to counter this theory, is what the prefrontal cortex is doing when making complex moral choices, if they are just intuited. — Isaac
We can't insist that "there really was a beetle in the box that time, too--it must have just been invisible" — Terrapin Station
That would be a classic example of disregarding recalcitrant data in the guise of theory-worshipping. — Terrapin Station
OK, so how do we go about holding any theory at all by that standard? We have a theory that the earth is round but Bill says he measured it and it came out flat. Do we have to re-think our theory, or just dismiss Bill's results as probably an error? — Isaac
Recalcitrant data for the Earth being round is a different objective measurement. Not someone's subjective report. — Terrapin Station
How is "I measured the earth and found it to be flat" not a subjective report? — Isaac
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