• schopenhauer1
    10.9k
    I want a red car, four slice toaster, a number of books, and a maple tree in the front yard. These would most likely be categorized as personal preferences. I want food, water, shelter, and companionship. These would most likely be categorized as "natural" human preferences. But are they? What distinguishes personal preferences from natural/instinctual ones?

    I say this because I think the lines are often misdrawn for cases like procreation. Hunger seems to be more on the natural/instinctual side of the spectrum. Whether to read this or that book seems to be on the personal side of the spectrum. Procreation is often put in the natural/instinctual side of the spectrum, but I argue that it should really be on the personal side.

    First off, we'd have to distinguish what makes a preference natural. One might argue three ways here:

    1) A preference is natural if without it, one is in physical discomfort that eventually leads to death. Hunger, temperature regulation, and thirst would fall into this category. Companionship would not or at least, the link of lack of relationships to death would be much farther removed than the first three.

    2) A preference is natural if it brings some sort of physical pleasure that is amenable through what the bodies can produce without "adding" something man-made to it. So sexual pleasure, good tasting food, a warm bath, might bring some sort of chemically-induced good feelings. One can refine this further and say man-made things can count too (like drugs) because it works on pathways that are "natural". Thus opioids work on naturally working pleasure-centers (or pain-blocking centers).

    3) A preference is natural if without it, the function of the species is nullified. Thus for example, humans operate using language and social cues. Without being in fully functioning social relationships, the human species would cease to function how the human species operates. In effect, its fundamental nature would change or go extinct. The desire to produce more humans, some might say, might fall into this category, as without it, the functioning of society (and human society specifically) disappears. Thus, psychological and social functions like companionship, achievement, curiosity, and other "higher" social/psychological motivations may fall into this as well.

    I believe that 1 is the strongest candidate for what "counts" as natural. The consequences are most apparent as not following the dictates of the preference lead to literal death and catastrophic discomfort and pain.

    I believe that 2 is not as strong. The consequences lead to a less stark consequence. Not following certain physical pleasures. However, it is stronger than 3 as a candidate for what is "natural" as the physical pleasures that arise from it cannot really be altered without substantial work. Physical pleasure is physical pleasure, left to itself, with very few exceptions.

    I believe that 3 is the weakest. It is very easy to manipulate 3 from a "natural" preference to a socialized norm. What we "think" as social necessities might be simply social conditioning. We "want" this or that preference because humans have a social "need" for it gets very blurry and is rife with personal preferences (shaped from social cues) that masquerade as natural ones. I don't even think this category should be considered as it is too fraught with these types of errors.

    Then there are things that don't fall under "natural" preferences at all. These are personal ones. What clothes to where, what kind of bread to get, etc. I think, contrary to what most people tend to believe, procreation falls under personal preference. People conflate several things including physical pleasure, and the centrality of procreation to evolutionary theory, for why procreation is natural. However, that is all it is, a conflation. Physical pleasure indeed may be "natural" (as per category 2), but the consequence (procreation) is not. There are a huge amount of social, psychological, and personal decisions around procreation that are not simply physical pleasure. Procreation certainly doesn't fall under 1 (without it an individual will die a discomforting and tortuous death). Rather, people put it under the vague 3 category of some necessary social functioning. As I tried to argue earlier, 3 is too vague and rife with personal preferences masquerading as "natural" to count as even its own category.

    So what is left? What is left is procreation is simply a personal preference like any other personal preference. I want coffee, eggs, and to read the newspaper. I want this cereal and not that one. The preference to procreate is simply one other personal preference, albeit one that impacts a person's life significantly. It still does not meet the criteria of 1 and 2 which may indeed count as natural (though even 2 can be argued against). Being that it does not meet the criteria of 1 and 2, it is thus a personal preference.
  • Isaac
    10.3k
    First off, we'd have to distinguish what makes a preference natural. One might argue three ways here:schopenhauer1

    A preference is 'natural' if it is one displayed by the species acting in a typical manner. All your other definitions are some form of 'necessary' which is not the same as 'natural'.
  • Terrapin Station
    13.8k
    The terms are not ideal, but the best way to make sense out of this distinction is that "natural" preferences are not about cultural artifacts. They're rooted purely in biological facts, in genetics, and they're preferences that members of a species tend to have--they're very common in that species.
  • schopenhauer1
    10.9k
    A preference is 'natural' if it is one displayed by the species acting in a typical manner. All your other definitions are some form of 'necessary' which is not the same as 'natural'.Isaac

    So this is close to the hard-to-define 3 that I was examining. I think definitions like this are hard to pinpoint to "typical manner". How does one distinguish what is truly natural and what is simply socially encouraged (and then enculturated to the point of being a truism)? So there are more clear cut examples from this category like language, for example. Without it, the human species appears to not be the human species, so I can accept that. But beyond a few key ones, much of it could be social enculturation and not "natural" anything. Simply socially learned things that are "preferred" by the individual when they take on those values.
  • schopenhauer1
    10.9k
    The terms are not ideal, but the best way to make sense out of this distinction is that "natural" preferences are not about cultural artifacts. They're rooted purely in biological facts, in genetics, and they're preferences that members of a species tend to have--they're very common in that species.Terrapin Station

    Yes, this is like what Isaac said. "Typical" in that species can be rife with social cues that are not genetic in origin, but socially learned, but so ingrained as to appear genetic. So indeed they could be ust cultural artifacts.
  • Possibility
    2.8k
    I continually find it fascinating that we refer to ‘natural’ or ‘instinctual’ preferences for our species, one of whose most distinctive characteristics is our individual capacity to completely restructure preferences...
  • schopenhauer1
    10.9k
    I continually find it fascinating that we refer to ‘natural’ or ‘instinctual’ preferences for our species, one of whose most distinctive characteristics is our individual capacity to completely restructure preferences...Possibility

    Yes this is very much a key part of my point. Even something as "natural-seeming" as procreation may be just culturally-derived but individually chosen preferences.
  • Congau
    224

    It depends on how generally or particularly you express the inclination in question. The wish for a maple tree in the front yard is a particular inclination, but the wish for beauty is a general one. The former is then personal and the latter is “natural”. But we see here that the same object can be both personal and natural depending on how you phrase it. I could say: I have a natural need for a maple tree because all human beings need beauty. It is thus consistent with human psychology to want that tree, and so it is natural. If, on the other hand, the sight the tree made me furious and homicidal, that would be an abnormal reaction and belong to abnormal psychology, and so it would not be natural. So even though both reactions may be seen as mere preferences, one is natural and the other is not.

    “Natural” is whatever is consistent with human psychology.

    I don’t see why animal survival instincts should be considered more strongly natural, unless we are restricted to the realm of biology. The philosophical notion of “natural” would probably include all psychology, but I think you are right in excluding contingent social norms.
  • god must be atheist
    5.1k
    @Schoppenhauer1, I created some time ago a similar progression on how soon a need entered the life of the organism in evolution.

    Love and greed and charity and art appreciation etc. are needs that last entered the specimens' needs in the evolution of the species. The lack of their fulfilment is not felt; their fulfilment brings joy; they don't kill you if you never experience them.

    Survival skills present in a person's life as needs: Intellectual needs, paritcularly as it pertains to food acquisition, does not give you pleasure, it gives you sadness and hardship, but not necessarily death; however, it can mean death (if, for instance, in the wet season of an otherwise arid land, the species does not learn how to preserve water for the lean months; etc.) Ditto for shelter and body cover. These presented in human's lives after they got off the trees, so to speak.

    Finally, there is the first survival order of needs: eating, drinking, avoiding freezing, breathing. All these will kill you very fast if you don't follow their demands.

    The only exception is sexual pleasure. It is not a survival skill, but a species-propagation skill. It works mainly on a positive reinforcement basis, instead of a negative one. With the exception of prolonged unfulfilment -- try to go for a week without orgasm.

    ===============
  • schopenhauer1
    10.9k
    I don’t see why animal survival instincts should be considered more strongly natural, unless we are restricted to the realm of biology. The philosophical notion of “natural” would probably include all psychology, but I think you are right in excluding contingent social norms.Congau

    So this is a good point. I think category 3 in the OP is equivalent to psychologically abstract preferences (like beauty, accomplishment, friendship, etc.). But it is precisely the blurriness between contingent social norms and psychology that this category can be a hodge-podge for making anything "natural". This category can be subverted for any purpose to say that any biased preference is "natural", including procreation. Thus, how do you decide what indeed crosses the boundary into personal preference?
  • schopenhauer1
    10.9k
    Love and greed and charity and art appreciation etc. are needs that last entered the specimens' needs in the evolution of the species. The lack of their fulfilment is not felt; their fulfilment brings joy; they don't kill you if you never experience them.god must be atheist

    Then what are they? How do you justify that it is "natural" and not just a cultural or personal preference?
  • Congau
    224

    If a phenomenon is found in pretty much all cultures and more or less all human beings seem to have it, there is strong reason to believe that it is natural. But this is just inductive reasoning. One also needs a theory of psychology to argue for it, and of course many such theories exist. If you want final and conclusive evidence, you will not find that in any theory anyway, so I’m not sure I understand your ultimately problem. If there are convincing arguments that a certain preference belongs to universal human psychology, I see no reason why I wouldn’t believe it.

    Now I’m sure there are psychological theories arguing that procreation, or the desire to produce offspring, is sufficiently prevalent in human psychology to make it more than just a personal or cultural preference. (It can also be supported by evidence from the animal kingdom.) You may still have a vague suspicion that it is culturally driven, but how much evidence do you need for anything?

    Granted, no fine line can be drawn, but procreation would probably be found well inside realm of what is natural.

    What crosses the boundary? That you never know. Exactly how much hair do you need to lose to be bald?
  • Deleted User
    -2
    Natural human preferences: infants holding their breath underwater - breathing, fasting, blinking, biases, seeing rainbow instead of white.. etc (impossible to ignore.. but can technically be ignored..). Most important for me is: biases.

    I don't consider procreation one of these: there are no dire (personal effects) of not having a kid.

    Personal preferences: blonde hair to brunette, apples to oranges, running to walking (optional).
  • deletedmemberMD
    588
    I don't consider procreation one of these: there are no dire (personal effects) of not having a kid.


    What about the men and women who commit suicide upon finding out they are infertile? What about Unwanted miscarriages?

    Then there is the opposite side, orphans. Most Orphans believe they need parents.
  • Deleted User
    -2


    What about them? Those are personal. The vast majority of women and men are not infertile or committing suicide because they have not procreated - nor is 'suicide' an inevitable consequence of not procreating. I doubt most people go around thinking 'reproduction or death' unless it's one of those insane nannies you see from Snapped.
  • Possibility
    2.8k
    Yes this is very much a key part of my point. Even something as "natural-seeming" as procreation may be just culturally-derived but individually chosen preferences.schopenhauer1

    The capacity renders ALL ‘natural-seeming’ preferences as individually chosen, including to eat or drink, to have sex, to withstand a certain temperature, to breath...

    Evidence that the majority of human beings prefer survival to death at any one moment may lead to the evaluative term ‘natural’, but it doesn’t preclude the fact that it can be individually chosen - or not. There are many elderly who reach a stage when they would prefer death and, given the opportunity to actualise their choice, do take that option. To refer to this preference as ‘unnatural’ is to disregard their choice and the reality of their subjective experience.
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