I'll take that as a "no", at least to the first question. — jamalrob
The problem is that there is a bunch of dicks with power and territory who plan to kill millions of people in the Middle East and destroy any traces there of secular values, freedom for women, reason and the diversity of cultural heritage, democracy, dissent, and religious difference, and who are sometimes willing to take that war overseas, making this not just a problem for the Middle East. If people in the West, who benefit from the freedoms that ISIS is trying to eradicate, do not show solidarity with those in the Middle East who are fighting them, then they are morally bankrupt. — jamalrob
I'm not even certain they want our support. You blindly assume that Western values are wanted there. There are more ways to social justice than Western democracy and imposing Western-style institutions. Imposing our values, our narrative of modernity isn't working and we need to open ourselves up to solutions that are specific to the area. Whatever intervention on our side, even if it were successful in eliminating IS, would be oppression in itself and therefore not solve the underlying problem. — Benkei
There is a romance, slick and cool factor that is attracting these kids to find purpose within the ranks of ISIS. It is very similar to the gang codes of inner cities or out here in the West with the Hell's Angels and the Dirty Dozen where the initiation often involves taking out another from the rival gang. — ArguingWAristotleTiff
Frankly Benkei, this is rancid. I mentioned "secular values, freedom for women, reason and the diversity of cultural heritage, democracy, dissent, and religious difference". Are you suggesting that these are just our values? — jamalrob
This reveals, more than anything I have said, a patronizing and essentializing "us and them" attitude to people in the Middle East.
Are Kurdish women equal to men because this was imposed on them by the West?
Did the Iranian people build an innovative pop and funk scene in the 1970s because they were agents of Western Imperialism? Did the people in Tahrir square demonstrate in favour of democracy because they were told to do it by the CIA? Are the women in the Middle East who bravely campaign for women's rights merely imposing an alien culture on a naturally barbaric people? Have Shias and Sunnis lived in peace together for many decades in many places only because they were brainwashed by Americans?
I did not call those values Western.
You did, and that two-faced imperialism underlies everything you say. They are values that are up for grabs for anyone who wants to grab them, and people around the world have grabbed them and continue to want them. They are universal.
The problem is that there is a bunch of dicks with power and territory who plan to kill millions of people in the Middle East and destroy any traces there of secular values, freedom for women, reason and the diversity of cultural heritage, democracy, dissent, and religious difference, and who are sometimes willing to take that war overseas, making this not just a problem for the Middle East. If people in the West, who benefit from the freedoms that ISIS is trying to eradicate, do not show solidarity with those in the Middle East who are fighting them, then they are morally bankrupt. — jamalrob
Otherwise your post is so confused I wouldn't know where to start. — jamalrob
I answered the question you keep saying I haven't answered:
The problem is that there is a bunch of dicks with power and territory who plan to kill millions of people in the Middle East and destroy any traces there of secular values, freedom for women, reason and the diversity of cultural heritage, democracy, dissent, and religious difference, and who are sometimes willing to take that war overseas, making this not just a problem for the Middle East. If people in the West, who benefit from the freedoms that ISIS is trying to eradicate, do not show solidarity with those in the Middle East who are fighting them, then they are morally bankrupt. — jamalrob — jamalrob
By the way, most Kurds are extremely conservative regarding women (which is reflected to their homophobia as well), it's mostly the Ocalan branch of Kurds that are pro-women and it was precisely this pervasive gender conservatism that turned Ocalan to feminism in the first place. — Πετροκότσυφας
Jamalrob, perhaps you don't see the excessive simplicity you argue for. What you describe above is the typical "Islamo-Fascists that hate our freedoms" -jargon back from the Dubya days. — ssu
Fine. But perhaps you would answer to the question I asked later.No, I described what ISIS are doing and what their motivations are. Again, it is frustrating to discuss this with people who want to think I'm saying something I am not. Do not try to fit everything into your ready-made templates — jamalrob
Meanwhile Benkei - or so it seems to me - is demanding clear and incontrovertible evidence of command and control by ISIS before we dare to bring them into a discussion of the attack in Paris. — Photographer
1. Declare war on the caliphate and treat citizens who have dealings with it under the good old statutes of treason, etc..
2. As the caliphate depends on holding territory, give maximum aid to alternative claimants to the territories they have a legitimate claim to and can control.
3. Selectively destroy munitions, military infrastructure, administrative centers etc. as we would do with any conventional enemy.
4. Above all avoid any rash changes in foreign policy. I see no need to change our policies on Syria, for instance. Assad needs to go, the refugees need help. — photographer
To this recent attack. I'm one of those "pansy liberals" who thinks the only good reaction to what happend in Paris is absolutely no reaction. — Benkei
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.