What experiment would you set up to show that humans had this feature? — Isaac
I've been watching, reading, and listening to quite a bit.
Which feature? — creativesoul
But the model of the table isn't more real in the artist's mind nor are these alternative models in the same field, one is how to negotiate the object in our spatiotemporal environment, the other is how to make marks on a page to best invoke such a table. Two different models with two different variance-minimising results. — Isaac
An artist must learn to process the information both (or perhaps a variety of different) ways, and to apply the ‘model’ or value structure according to the task at hand. — Possibility
Not on my view...
However, Kant denies direct perception of reality. — creativesoul
Thus, Kant did not and could not draw and maintain a distinction between non linguistic thought and linguistic thought. — creativesoul
You said "I found it rather odd that they chose some experiments/games which are not even capable of showing in humans what they are wanting the same experiment to show in non humans?", yet you seemed to be saying, in the rest of your posts (maybe I've got this wrong), that humans were unlike non-human primates in their abilities in this regard. So I thought you would have an experiment in mind which showed as much to your satisfaction, but maybe I've misinterpreted what you're saying. — Isaac
When I ask or tell myself what I’m thinking, I must have already thought it, in order to have something to ask or tell myself about. — Mww
No language is used whatsoever... — Mww
the misattribution of uniquely human attributes to that which is non human. — creativesoul
What does the dot experiment prove with regard to whether or not some non human animal can possibly use Bayesian reasoning, or have some sense of fairness/justice? — creativesoul
Are you walking back the earlier claim? You've recently denied offering the experimental results of the grape/cucumber trials as support for also saying that the participants were working from some sense of unfairness/fairness and/or justice/injustice. That denial is false. It contradicts what happened. You did propose such. — creativesoul
In order to develop a sense of justice/fairness, the candidate must perform a comparative assessment between what they expected to happen and what did happen. To do this requires naming and descriptive practices. That how one begins to become aware that they have a worldview. — creativesoul
What's the difference between a non human primate's clear behavioural signs of discontent because they did not receive what they expected, and discontent as a result of having a sense of justice/fairness? — creativesoul
the misattribution of uniquely human attributes to that which is non human.
— creativesoul
Yes, that is what I'm asking you about. If my null hypothesis were that attributes such as a sense of fairness were not unique to humans, what kind of experimental result would force me to think otherwise. Or are you suggesting that something other than empirical evidence should force me to hold a different null hypothesis? — Isaac
The results of those experiments are pretty vague. They rule out a few extreme theories at either end of the spectrum, but they could reasonably support a number of quite different theories. That's why there's still no consensus on the matter. — Isaac
In order to develop a sense of justice/fairness, the candidate must perform a comparative assessment between what they expected to happen and what did happen. To do this requires naming and descriptive practices. That how one begins to become aware that they have a worldview.
— creativesoul
And you know this how? — Isaac
What's the difference between a non human primate's clear behavioural signs of discontent because they did not receive what they expected, and discontent as a result of having a sense of justice/fairness?
— creativesoul
Nothing... — Isaac
I can sit on a chair and think about triangles without using language. I cannot if I've never used language. Thus, such thoughts are themselves existentially dependent upon language even if our having them in the chair is done in silence. — creativesoul
Ah, I see what you mean now. You mean "the artist must....in order to produce art" . I read it as "the artist must..." in the same sense as the non-artist simply trying to make inferences about the the object in general. My mistake. — Isaac
In order to know that we must first know what our sense of fairness/justice consists of. — creativesoul
So, those particular experiments produced results that provide equal support for different reports/accounts of those experiments, particularly reports/accounts regarding the content of non human thought and belief. — creativesoul
Decades of careful study and accounting practices largely informed by methodological naturalism, use of logical reasoning, and knowing what all thought and belief consist of. — creativesoul
non human primates cannot make an agreement with you to do certain things and receive certain rewards. — creativesoul
Many of our conceptual models are inaccurate or limited, leading to conflict and error in how we interact with the world. — Possibility
I'm pretty sure none of the experiments made any judgement about the "content of non- human thought/belief. I don't think thought/belief is even the sort of thing that can have content, so don't even know what evidence for such would look like. — Isaac
In order to know that we must first know what our sense of fairness/justice consists of.
— creativesoul
Our sense of fairness/justice consists of anything we want it to consist of. It's not a term that pre-exists humans making it up. — Isaac
I'm assuming that non linguistic animals(non human primates) are capable of having a sense of fairness/justice, and you need to convince me otherwise.
Is that about right? — creativesoul
What is thought and belief then, if it is not the sort of thing that has content? — creativesoul
our sense of fairness/justice - if it predates our language use - does not consist of anything we want it to. — creativesoul
I'm assuming that non linguistic animals(non human primates) are capable of having a sense of fairness/justice, and you need to convince me otherwise.
Is that about right?
— creativesoul
No - why would I need to convince you otherwise? If I thought your views might cause harm to me or others, then maybe I'd have a crack at convincing you otherwise, but outside of that scenario I can't think of a single reason why I would want to do that. — Isaac
What is thought and belief then, if it is not the sort of thing that has content?
— creativesoul
I think a belief is a disposition to act a certain way, its an inference manifest in the action it sets in motion. I think all living things, and some non-living things, have beliefs.
Thoughts, for me, are any neural activity, only creatures with brains can therefore have thoughts. The two are not the same. — Isaac
our sense of fairness/justice - if it predates our language use - does not consist of anything we want it to.
— creativesoul
We don't have a sense of fairness. I have one, and you have one but there's no reason at all why they should be any more similar than is required to have the most basic conversation on the matter. — Isaac
Of course the notion fairness did not predate our language use. Creatures had certain beliefs prior to language use. I've no doubt those beliefs varied. Which collection were going to come under the umbrella of 'fairness' was determined by the language community using the word, and at no point in time did they ever sit down to thrash out exactly what it, or any other word really means. — Isaac
I was asking if that assumption was the one you're holding.. — creativesoul
That notion of belief grants inference and disposition to act to inanimate objects. — creativesoul
I'm asking you for exactly what counts as a sense of fairness? What is the criterion which - when met by any and all candidates - counts as a case of that candidate having a sense of fairness? You and I meet the criterion.
What is it such that the non human primate meets it too? — creativesoul
To clarify, I think non-linguistic primates have a sense of fairness, — Isaac
You mean that you have a model where there are non-linguistic primates and they have a sense of fairness, but it's strictly something you've constructed. Objectively, you don't believe there are things with properties that make them primates or make them have a sense of fairness or anything like that. You should always be clear that you're simply talking about models that you've constructed, and this reply is part of your model that you've constructed in your view, too. — Terrapin Station
Luckily most of my models are shared with my interlocutors — Isaac
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.