More than 500 legal scholars have published a letter arguing that President Trump committed impeachable conduct in his dealings with the Ukrainian government earlier this year. The evidence shows that the President attempted to corrupt the 2020 election by using his official power to withhold critical military aid in order to pressure the Ukrainian president into announcing investigations that would benefit Trump “for his personal and political benefit.” This behavior, the scholars reason, is an “attempt to subvert the Constitution”—language that Founding Father George Mason used to describe what would constitute an impeachable offense. They write:

The Founders did not make impeachment available for disagreements over policy, even if they are profound, or for extreme distaste for the manner in which the President executes his office. Only “Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors” warrant impeachment. The President’s conduct with respect to Ukraine clears that bar.

Protect Democracy.

"If Trump is innocent, why won't he allow both the subpoena'd witnesses and documents exonerate himself? It only adds to the other articles in the impeachment, of obstruction of justice."

My guess is because it’s an unjust investigation and a fishing expedition. — NOS4A2

Why is it 'unjust'? Trump willingly released the transcript of the initial phone call with the President of the Ukraine, on the grounds that he thought the transcript would exonerate him. Recall the number of times he's said it was a 'perfect phone call'? But to any objective observer, the transcript itself contained clear evidence of wrong-doing - asking Ukraine 'do us a favour', when 'asking for favours' was the very crime at issue. Then you've got a qualified informant saying that there's credible evidence of abuse of office, and a transcript which corroborates that. So investigating that - how is it unjust? How is it a 'fishing expedition'?

Trump then orders all of his subordinates not to co-operate with the enquiry. If there's nothing to hide, then why is he hiding everything? His only defense against 300 pages of expert testimony is that it's a 'witch hunt' and 'a hoax'. Neither he nor his lackeys have any defense whatever against the fact of the case. All they have is lies, insults, obfuscations, and evasions.

And speaking of 'fairness' - what about the careers of people like Marie Yovanovich, who lost her State Department career because she was in the way of Rudy and Trump's schemes? What about all the other career officials who have been bullied, insulted, vilified, had their patriotism and loyalty questioned or been fired because they dared to stand up against Trump. How is that fair?

So for the last 3+ years I've been anticipating Trump's impeachment...

I actually wanted Trump to win the election, to grind his unhinged organ for all to see, and to then get impeached in inglorious and lasting infamy. I've said it many times over the last few years: Trump is the entire pack of cigarettes we're being forced to smoke; it's a drastic measure to course correct political culture, and instigate categorical reforms...

It's taken twice as long as I estimated for us to get this far (I drastically over-estimated the stubbornness that is inherent in a two party battle-front), and it now occurs to me that we're at a developmental cross-roads:

If Republican house and senate representatives keep sticking their stink-holes in the air, in their chorus of party uberalles, the republican base which desperately needs this experience (as cathartic ipecac) might just be successfully inducted deeper into the shit (in which case, we're probably in for a double dose of flimflam's patented Trump-oil).

If Nunes, McConnell, Lindsey et al., don't flinch, and if Fox News continues to (treasonously) obfuscate, then I think America is inexorably fucked, which will inexorably fuck the rest of the world, and likely be the beginning of the end of democracy.

@NOS4A2 it's not that I think Trump will himself fuck America (in degrees beyond what he has already done), it's that the cultural principles which hoisted Trump to office (and more importantly, which cause Republicans to cling to Trump's ass-hole), being thereby amplified, will erode American politics beyond repair or reform. The moment a national or global emergency/crisis of large scale and immediate threat emerges, powers will be taken which will then never be given up; we're standing on a greased incline.

And the rest of the world watches closely to see the outcome of this great political experiment; the outcome of which, either way, will send unambiguous signals: leaders, dictators and strong-men will see that they too can get away with it, and maybe even decide that they ought to. Dissatisfied populations will simply see the failure of democracy, and either be more accepting of the bull shit governments they're living under, or decide that they should merely erect a dictatorship of their own.

TL;DR: the upcoming trial of president Donald J Trump is perhaps the most culturally and politically critical test of "the rule of law" in all of human history. If we fail this exam, I fear we're going to eventually drop out...

P.S: Maybe I'm over-blowing it, maybe not. I do believe we're seeing one of the most critical moments in American history.

I'm hoping that Trump is violently expelled, and that this will actually provide the American political system with something like immunity against demagogues, like a vaccine, which is after all a small dose of the disease. That's the best-case scenario, but I ain't holding my breath.

then I think America is inexorably fucked, which will inexorably fuck the rest of the world, and likely be the beginning of the end of democracy. — VagabondSpectre

How fuck the rest if the world?

He's going to be acquitted, he'll claim exoneration, he'll run in 2020 and we'll all party hard when he loses.

But if he wins, just remember he's not the worst president we ever had.

How fuck the rest if the world? — frank

The economic or militaristic failure of America would have so many complex ramifications across our inter-dependent globalized markets and security infrastructures that the entire world would enter a period of adjustment as a result. And while at the end of it more people might be better off, in the interim it would be marked by loss. (and since we're dealing with so many other global issues over the next century, I don't know if we can afford it)

Secondarily (purely politically) the goings on of America serve as example and litmus test of what to do or not to do. It's what (or was) what many populations aspire to have, and what many governments aspire to be. The more America fails, the less true that becomes, and the more other nations start trying non-"democratic" approaches to governance...

just remember he's not the worst president we ever had. — frank

I'm straining to to understand how this could be true...

The economic or militaristic failure of America would have so many complex ramifications across our inter-dependent globalized markets and security infrastructures that the entire world would enter a period of adjustment as a result. — VagabondSpectre

That almost happened in 08-09. The US could definitely crash into a ditch and default on its debt in the midst of a decade long depression out of which China might emerge as the world's top dog. Could Trump cause that by himself? I dont think so. That sort of thing happens because of drastically concentrated wealth (I think).

The more America fails, the less true that becomes, and the more other nations start trying non-"democratic" approaches to governance... — VagabondSpectre

I'm not super comfortable with your iconic view of the US. We talked about that before.

I'm straining to to understand how this could be true... — VagabondSpectre

I think Andrew Jackson was worse (Indian Removal Act). There was no 24 hour news cycle then though.

This is a very critical moment. I’m just of the mind that American politics needs eroding. We’re watching the death throes of the politically-correct, public relations, corrupt Ivy-league style of politics as they lose their grip on power.. The elites are exposed. Washington is no longer getting rich at the expense of the rest of the country. Good riddance in my opinion.

I think Andrew Jackson was worse (Indian Removal Act). There was no 24 hour news cycle then though. — frank

Jackson was actually the only candidate that came to mind as potentially worse. Trump seems to be a kind of digital-age Jacksonian (with the rabble rousing and all). That said I don't know enough to make a salient comparison beyond their populism.

I'm not super comfortable with your iconic view of the US. We talked about that before. — frank

I can't recall the specifics of your discomfort, but I'm guessing at some point I said "It's the best worst system we have"....

Keep in mind I am a reformist, and I am interested in large scale and radical changes to current democratic processes. That said, there's no societal dry-dock where we can afford to park our affairs while we work out something better; we exist on the open water and any changes we undertake mustn't cause us to sink in the meantime.

Could Trump cause that by himself? I dont think so. That sort of thing happens because of drastically concentrated wealth (I think). — frank

It's more about mismanagement, priorities, and complacency than concentrated wealth (some would say that such occurrences are what helps to concentrate wealth in the first place), but it's all related in complex ways. Essentially I agree with you, and I never said Trump will single-handedly cause a catastrophe. He's more like a poison; the longer he is in the system, the more he will ruin it, and the more America's eventual fuck-up is hastened.

Consider that if Trump gets another 4 years, it might have the side-effect of cementing the Republican party as dip-sticks for a septic tank of corporate interest... Let's say this leads to fewer environmental regulations and lower taxes (higher profits for Walmart!). The wealth gap will grow, quality of life will stagnate and decline, and we might not be prepared for the effects of climate change or the end of oil. That puts America into a vulnerable situation, where natural disasters are ruinous, civil unrest is rising, and the union itself is called into question.

This is a very critical moment. I’m just of the mind that American politics needs eroding. We’re watching the death throes of the politically-correct, public relations, corrupt Ivy-league style of politics as they lose their grip on power.. The elites are exposed. Washington is no longer getting rich at the expense of the rest of the country. Good riddance in my opinion — NOS4A2

But for you, trump is a knight in shining armor who came to slay the black knight and his dragons.

For me, Trump is the naked emperor, parading through the streets as if wearing feathered robes of highest quality.

Tell me, what do you see when you look at Trump?

Trump has declared that he will present no defense at the impeachment hearings. Although this declaration was presented on the purported grounds that the enquiry is unfair and an abuse of process, this too is a lie, in that the impeachment enquiry was instigated on the basis of a legal complaint, and has followed the proper constitutional guidelines at every step. So one can surmise that the reason Trump is presenting no defense, is that he doesn't have one, and all he and his lackeys can do is try and wreck, stall, or block the proceedings by whatever means possible, legal or otherwise.

Jerry Nadler, head of the judicial committee, responded to the White House's refusal to participate, saying, "If the President has no good response to the allegations, then he would not want to appear before the Committee."

"Having declined this opportunity, he cannot claim that the process is unfair," he continued. "The President's failure will not prevent us from carrying out our solemn constitutional duty."

~ CNN.

@Wayfarer even Nixon had more spine...

We shouldn't judge though, maybe it's on the count of Trump's bone spurs!

I’m just of the mind that American politics needs eroding. — NOS4A2

That's because you're a troll.

Richard Nixon was a gentleman compared to Donald Trump.

But for you, trump is a knight in shining armor who came to slay the black knight and his dragons.

For me, Trump is the naked emperor, parading through the streets as if wearing feathered robes of highest quality.

Tell me, what do you see when you look at Trump?

I don’t see him like that at all. I just see him as Donald Trump, the same billionaire playboy we’ve known for decades. He’s as American as apple pie.

The time of word-politics is over. The euphemism, the glittering generalities, and the lullabies of our talking presidents may have worked for those placated by such politics, but in the meanwhile the country was being taken advantage of. Those times are over and the course of the American experiment is being pointed in the right direction.

He’s as American as apple pie. — NOS4A2

If apple pie was born into extreme wealth, and then proceeded to fail at everything but entertainment, then I would agree with you.

How has trump rebuked the elite power mongers? It's seems like he was one of them all along (or worse, he is their useful and idiotic clown).

Our swamp runneth over...

and a scholar too! :lol:

If apple pie was born into extreme wealth, and then proceeded to fail at everything but entertainment, then I would agree with you.

How has trump rebuked the elite power mongers? It's seems like he was one of them all along (or worse, he is their useful idiot).

Our swamp runneth over...

Fail at everything? He’s the most powerful man in the world. If that is failure I’d love to see what you consider success.

He did it by showing they are in fact not elite. There is nothing elite about them save that they can spin a better yarn.

Fail at everything? He’s the most powerful man in the world. If that is failure I’d love to see what you consider success. — NOS4A2

The man wouldn't even release his tax returns, likely because it would show he doesn't even have a billion dollars (or at the very least, that he has paid no taxes in roughly the last decade because he has been hemorrhaging wealth). For all we know, he as done nothing but make shitty deals and lose daddy's money for his entire life. And now he is fucking America itself, just like he did to most or all of his so called businesses.

As far as winning the election goes, he did manage to prove that there is a serious hatred of Hillary and DNC corruption, but that's about all he proved (maybe he also demonstrated that abusing "sudafed" is a good way to stay energized for campaign rallies). For many voters, Trump was the extreme version of spoiling the ballot. He is a monkey wrench thrown into the works. Otherwise, i don't see how pandering to southern conservatives with nonsense about a wall somehow sticks it to the elites.

The elites got their tax cuts after-all. Is taxation on the ultra wealthy the real evil we need to confront?

P.S, success would be not becoming the single greatest national embarrassment in American history, not compromising American interests, or at least not being impeached for obvious corruption and greedy criminality. Not only is he a criminal, he is really bad at it. He's bad at everything except entertainment, which was how he defeated the ultra-charismatic likes of Ted Cruz et al. back in the 2016 Republican primaries.

If Trump is your vision of success, what would constitute failure?

Tax returns? The man paid $38m in 2005, more in one year than you or I would ever pay in 5 lifetimes.

Most of his businesses? There are nearly 500 business entities currently running under the Trump organization. If most have have failed as you claim, why won’t you prove it?

He’s fucking America? America hasn’t seen an economy like this in over half a century. Jobs, wage growth, record low unemployment, the biggest oil producer in the world—America is winning.

A criminal? Name one criminal offence he has been convicted of. You can’t, because there are none.

Why would you omit these facts?

Because beneath the typical anti-trump propaganda is a story you’d never tell: the truth.

Tax returns? The man paid $38m in 2005, more in one year than you or I would ever pay in 5 lifetimes. — NOS4A2

He owns a lot of properties, and in years where he doesn't spend or lose too much money he sees a return. In 1978 he was apparently worth 100 million dollars, which if invested then in a typical retirement savings fund would be worth 6 billion today, so his returns since then definitely have not been great (generous estimates of his wealth are around 4 billion, mostly in NY real-estate).

Most of his businesses? There are nearly 500 business entities currently running under the Trump organization. If most have have failed as you claim, why won’t you prove it? — NOS4A2

Well, Trump owns the Trump Organization, but he does not own all the Trump Organization's organizations. He merely leases his name (his brand) to many of them. His brand is one of the few valuable things he has to offer (especially in entertainment), despite various and infamous failures which have damaged it. The 4 bankruptcies resulting from failed casino ventures are one. His failed foray into American football is another. Trump University was shuttered in 2010 after a class action lawsuit was filed against him claiming fraud and deceptive practices, which he recently settled (im not sure if there are still on going cases regarding Trump U).

Check out the website, which is still active for some reason: Trump University. It's literally just an image file of a login screen...

Isn't it perfect that a bull-shit artist founded a school of bullshit art, and that the school itself turned out to be bull-shit?

What have we learned?

He’s fucking America? America hasn’t seen an economy like this in over half a century. Jobs, wage growth, record low unemployment, the biggest oil producer in the world—America is winning. — NOS4A2

Slashing corporate tax rates makes stock markets rise, but it doesn't help the non-elites like you reckon it should. Trickle-down economics doesn't seem to be working.

Why then does homelessness appear to increase between 2017 and 2018, where before it has always decreased (since the great depression)? Obama didn't cause homelessness to rise, so what gives?

A criminal? Name one criminal offence he has been convicted of. You can’t, because there are none. — NOS4A2

Well... He has been sued many times, and lost many times. Back in the day he and his father were convicted of refusing to rent to black people. The Trump U fraud is also demonstrably criminal. In 91 he and others were found guilty of conspiring to avoid paying union pension and welfare contributions to workers. Before that he was involved in an undocumented and unpaid worker scandal (and another unpaid worker scandal has just emerged). He has also been fined for anti-trust violations, and many other reasons...

Fines are issued for criminal acts, therefore he is a notorious criminal according to the legal definitions of "crime" and "criminal".

Because beneath the typical anti-trump propaganda is a story you’d never tell: the truth. — NOS4A2

I notice you didn't bother to address the bit about Trump being a national embarrassment of unprecedented scale, which is rather my point...

Right off the bat an anti-Trump talking point I’ve heard many times, even in this very thread—Had Trump done such and such with his money he’d be a lot wealthier. Of course this sort of counterfactual thinking is unprovable, more a catharsis for those who believe they could do a better job.

“Trickle-down” economics is a Democrat-invented mischaracterization of supply-side economics. Right from the get go we expose ourselves. Of course it’s a straw man.

4 bankruptcies out of nearly 500 businesses. So much for “most of them” being failures.

Neither Trump nor his family have been convicted of refusing to rent to black people. He was sued and it was settled. No, Trump has not been convicted of any crimes. His Trump U was a civil, not a criminal suit.

It’s perfect that with all the bullshit you oppose you serve up a big steamy platter of it yourself.

Trump loves going to court. And being there. And Trump typically settles things here and there and everywhere. Settler-in-Chief I'd say.

Before he took office, Donald Trump was involved in a truly astronomical number of lawsuits. A USA Today report published in 2016 found that there had been 3,500 legal actions filed by and against Trump and his hundreds of businesses in federal and state courts, ranging from sexual harassment to contract violations to class-actions for misleading advertising, and settled at least 100 of them.

He’s also a very litigious man. He will, or at least would, sue at the drop of a hat.

Let's say this leads to fewer environmental regulations and lower taxes (higher profits for Walmart!). The wealth gap will grow, quality of life will stagnate and decline, and we might not be prepared for the effects of climate change or the end of oil. That puts America into a vulnerable situation, where natural disasters are ruinous, civil unrest is rising, and the union itself is called into question. — VagabondSpectre

A Democratic dynasty wouldn't put us in a much better position. We need fission and fusion power if possible. Democrats wouldn't support that.

We'll deal with peak oil and climate change when we get there.

Right off the bat an anti-Trump talking point I’ve heard many times, even in this very thread—Had Trump done such and such with his money he’d be a lot wealthier. Of course this sort of counterfactual thinking is unprovable, more a catharsis for those who believe they could do a better job. — NOS4A2

Actually we can just look at the return rates that have been realized by low risk investment funds since the 70's. He has performed more poorly than the market average, objectively. Like his steaks, Trump is sub-prime...

“Trickle-down” economics is a Democrat-invented mischaracterization of supply-side economics. Right from the get go we expose ourselves. Of course it’s a straw man. — NOS4A2

How is it a straw man? Corporations have continuously gotten better at allowing fewer profits to leak down to their employees and competitors. It's only in the recent few years that management theory has begun to seriously consider that businesses should focus on creating value for their customers, employees, and society, rather than simply being a profit vacuum for shareholders. In any case, the wealth gap is fucked, and poverty is becoming a reality for more and more Americans.

What good is a Walmart job if it is part time, offers no benefits, and has no chance of ever improving?

If the cost of living is rising, but the earning power of the lower class is not rising, then homelessness will rise.

4 bankruptcies out of nearly 500 businesses. So much for “most of them” being failures. — NOS4A2

Trump doesn't own 500 businesses, he leases his name to over 200 businesses in the Trump organization. It's more of a brand sharing consortium than the actual work of Donnie. He only runs a few of the businesses himself (or has run) as far as I know. Apparently he made some good hotel deals back in the 80's, but that's really the only major success of his I can find.

Neither Trump nor his family have been convicted of refusing to rent to black people. He was sued and it was settled. No, Trump has not been convicted of any crimes. His Trump U was a civil, not a criminal suit. — NOS4A2

Actually the court did convict them, but that conviction was appealed and a settlement reached.

We know that he refused to rent to blacks. That's a crime. He did the crime, so he's a criminal.

Littering is a crime, and if someone is a prolific litterer, then I am only speaking the truth by calling them a criminal. Civil torts are crimes too: who'da thunk it?

It’s perfect that with all the bullshit you oppose you serve up a big steamy platter of it yourself. — NOS4A2

What can I say?

I'm not stupid enough to have taken a clown seriously, so I don't find myself in the current predicament of needing to defend it.

Sometimes i wonder if always Trumpers would rather see America fail than admit to what Trump actually is. He was elected to drain the swamp of liars, but he is lyingest president of all time. So they cling to the idea that it is all one big attack by the democrats, and make unfathomably hypocritical post hoc decisions and justifications about what they think is right and decent...

P.S. Want to know how I knew Trump's presidency would come to this? It's not because democrats are reliably sore losers (they are), it's because Donald Trump is reliably ridiculous, short-sighted, narcissistic, and megalomaniacal. He is an absolute clown, his campaign was an absolute circus, and his presidency has been nothing short of an intensifying continuation of that circus. There's only so much mental contorting Trump's supporters can do to keep the faith, and there's only so much that the likes of Pelosi are willing to sacrifice for the sake of political expediency (she did not want to impeach because Trump was going to be the dem's 2020 spring-board, but it became clear that not-impeaching (or at least not trying) was too costly to American values and American interests).

A Democratic dynasty wouldn't put us in a much better position. We need fission and fusion power if possible. Democrats wouldn't support that. — frank

Nuclear power and beyond is controversial for those who are interested in it; I don't think democrats are in a position to discount possible energy sources as solutions. (the stigma around nuclear power is not unearned, and debating modern safety standards is really really complicated; I at least believe that the dems would be open minded, and I believe the republicans are more interested in keeping regulations on fossil fuels low because jobs).

We'll deal with peak oil and climate change when we get there. — frank

Not being proactive about mitigating problems, and preparing for their effects, is how catastrophic failure occurs in large organizations. Peak oil and climate change are visible on the horizon (the expenses of climate change have arguably begun to roll in). Human society is not invincible, and there is really a serious risk of mass death if we aren't prepared for the future (a bigger risk than ever before given our population size and the unsustainability of our current activity). I'm mostly worried about food shortages emerging from combinations of eroding soil quality, erratic weather and climate changes, and sourcing the energy we need to run our massive farms (apparently our mono-cultural style of farming is mainly what destroys soils (to where we only have roughly 60 harvests left before it becomes useless)).

Now is not the time to conserve the status quo, therefore, where applicable, fuck conservatism. We need radical values and methods changes, so fuck the democratic party while we're at it (the self-serving panderers that they are).

We are entering an era of migration crisis. Donald Trump is the foreguard of Fascism ready to defend nationalism. The jack-boots marching can be heard approaching from a distance.

Forecast years ago by, among others, Zbigniew Brzezinski, and earlier by economists, names forgot, writing for lay readers. I'm afraid there's much in your thought. It's interesting: I am among those who have supposed that the USA is above the fray, in most senses. But there are clearly greater forces at work, if not always readily apparent, than a nation's supposed immunity can stand against. Among the predictions were the possibility of large population movements North up through Mexico. I don't see that happening, but I think in fifty years the US-Mexico border, while it won't have a wall - that's just a very, very bad joke - will be comprehensively guarded by god-knows-what technology.

So Trump announces on the White House Lawn that Rudy has ‘a really good report’. It’s on the story that Ukraine set up the Russians - same shtick that got Trump into the impeachment in the first place! But let’s not bother with the tiresome details. Rudy’s gonna offer to ‘present it to Congress’.

Here’s a scenario:

Rudy: Hey Congress, want to hear what I’ve got?

Congress: Not unless you’re prepared to address it to the Judiciary Committee as exculpatory evidence!

Rudy: Hey you’re Impeachment is crooked, I’m never going to appear there.

Congress: In that case, thanks but no thanks.

Fox News: DEMS SUPPRESS EVIDENCE OF BIDEN CORRUPTION IN UKRAINE.