First of all, likely "the Brexiteers" aren't so far right as you imply. That's your first error. Shouldn't believe the portrayal of those who oppose them. Just as I don't believe that leftists are dominated by 'Cultural Marxists — ssu

Your error is misinterpreting what I said. I said he'll stuff the far right Brexiteers not Brexiteers in general, who come from a variety of political backgrounds.

Why? Because he's a pragmatist, if also an opportunist. And he's done the latter part already.

So it’s the stupid poor responsible for this?

You didn't answer my question?

Boris can and probably will swing back to the center now and stuff the far right Brexiteers he no longer needs with a softer trade deal etc.

Agreed, Johnson will take the path of least resistance, which will be a softer Brexit, probably along the lines of May's deal, because anything harder will throw up some intractable problems. Including the destruction of the Union, although that may be lost already.

Also the working class are as I said earlier going to have quite a hangover.

I guess they chose Brussels over their own country. What a shame.

Not at all, I acknowledge that you are looking on from afar. But for Scotland, it would give them autonomy, to be free of a Westminster with overbearing control, little accountability and little concern for the plight of the Scott's. They would join the EU as an independent country cooperating with 27 partner countries.

This is not something they wished to do, but rather is a remedy to a chaotic destructive Westminster.

I wasn't talking of any mandate for a second referendum. Only what would be the likely result. You should consider that there would be a campaign before the vote and that the demographic would have moved on( the young reaching the voting age).

The Tory's didn't need to mention Corbyn, or their socialist policies much, as the anti socialist ideology is quite widespread already. But it is what they were banking on. Interestingly there is a weakness in Labour's approach which has become evident today. That they were banking on the poor and those concerned about public services etc, but forgot the slightly better off in their traditional seats, "the managing", rather than "the just about managing". These people really didn't want socialism and had become supporters of New Labour, they thought the party had left them and moved to the left.

The lack of holding Tory's to account during the campaign is unfortunate, but their strategy was honed down to two or three slogans, so they avoided the media. It was populism what swung it.

It's possible that the reason the conservatives won is because their position is the correct one. Sometimes you have to get beyond trying to explain why the result was wrong and just admit it was you who was wrong.

Looking forward to making you eat this when the Dems win the Whitehouse. :halo:

What position anyway? Brexit? Boris's ban on combs? Michael Gove's proposal to make lying compulsory?

If we had had a second referendum on leaving the EU, we would have voted remain, this is widely known and is the reason why brexiters were vehemently against a second referendum. — Punshhh

I disagree. Show me some evidence..

The big question for us namby-pamby socialists is, 'why do turkeys vote for Christmas?'

Can it really be that they hate sprouts more than they love life?

The big question for us namby-pamby socialists is, 'why do turkeys vote for Christmas?' — unenlightened

Yet there are liberal rich. Are they suicidal or principled? Can't the same hold true for working class conservatives?

Its the power of populism. I say this more in reference to the overwhealming feeling amongst these voters that Corbyn is the Devil incarnate. There is also Brexit and I have some sympathy as I have said before, with the anti immigration vote, because I have seen the towns where you can walk down the street and only hear people speaking Polish

I disagree. Show me some evidence..

I can have a look later, but I thought people think that a snap referendum would be 52/48 the other way. Media commentators have been saying this for over a year. Also why are the brexiters so vehemently against it and have been saying that the people who were making the case for a confirmatory vote, where doing it to stop Brexit. Surely they wanted more democracy now that we are better informed.

What position anyway? Brexit? Boris's ban on combs? Michael Gove's proposal to make lying compulsory? — Baden

I was unaware of the proposal to make lying compulsory, but i'd be in favor of that. Or would I?

Yet there are liberal rich. Are they suicidal or principled? Can't the same hold true for working class conservatives? — Hanover

Sure, people can vote against class interests on principle. But usually, most of the time, most don't. Unless there is some other factor.The virtue of the rich and the poor is not that great, which is why there are left and right constituencies and areas.

Not at all, I acknowledge that you are looking on from afar. But for Scotland, it would give them autonomy, to be free of a Westminster with overbearing control, little accountability and little concern for the plight of the Scott's. They would join the EU as an independent country cooperating with 27 partner countries.

This is not something they wished to do, but rather is a remedy to a chaotic destructive Westminster.

I guess the question is whether people voted for SNP to have another referendum or did so in order to give a big middle finger to Labour.

Yet there are liberal rich. Are they suicidal or principled? Can't the same hold true for working class conservatives? — Hanover

I’d say the rich have the financial luxury to be principled. They’re hardly going to struggle if their taxes go up. But poorer voters are going to have a much harder time if food prices go up or any welfare they rely on is reduced, and maybe it’s just me being pragmatic and worrisome (having relied on government assistance in the past), but I struggle to understand how these concerns aren’t the priority for the working class.

That's a pretty clueless comment if you knew what platform SNP was running on.

Oh, you know the reasons why people voted the way they did? I don’t claim to so that’s why I’m raising the question. But I’d love to hear it.

Your error is misinterpreting what I said. I said he'll stuff the far right Brexiteers not Brexiteers in general, who come from a variety of political backgrounds.

Why? Because he's a pragmatist, if also an opportunist. And he's done the latter part already. — Baden

What are the 'far right Brexiteers'? How many 'far right Brexiteers' are there? I presume it is something similar as the number far left Stalinists in the Labour party. Or perhaps it's the 856 members of the Communist Party of Britain that is the far left in the UK.

And just how is he going to swing back to the center? Why would he do anything like that?

If you get a landslide victory, one of the biggest since the 1980's, why on Earth would any politician start 'moving' anywhere and changing the objectives and a winning narrative? The only thing, which Boris Johnson said publicly in his victory speech, is that he (and the conservative party) will never take those pro-Brexit votes from otherwise Labor leaning voters for granted. That doesn't sound like reeling to the left.

There are many cultured and intelligent leftist here. But few if any aren't for or praise how Marxism has historically played out in the multitude of leftist revolutions in history. What lacks is the previous fanatic belief in the ideology. And as there is no stigma attached to Marxism and the stench of all those killed in the name of that cause doesn't irritate us (unlike with fascism and nazism), people are happy to use the trademark.

I'll take these in reverse order.

1) Centre not left.
2) It doesn't matter what Johnson says.
3) Because he's a pragmatist and the context has just changed dramatically.
4) You presume that why?
5) I don't know how many there are.
6) "Brextremists" might be a more accurate term as they're not all on the right.

So, my claim is (and it's just a theory, obviously) that Johnson will pivot away from his hard Brexit line because that will make it easier for him to make a trade deal and allay the risk of a new no-deal exit, which would have disastrous economic implications. He can drop the pretence of ideological commitment now because he has castrated Farage as a political player. And his history shows he's generally pro-European, so I expect his focus to be on maintaining his economic bona-fides rather on trying to win any more Brextremist beauty contests. This is all just another way of saying it's about realpolitik.

Here’s hoping he blows off Rees-Mogg. Who I haven’t actually heard much of recently. Didn’t lose his seat did he?

Unfortunately not. Mogg was sidelined and told to shut up after being too much of a posh twit even for the Conservatives. And, yes, long may that continue.

1) Centre not left. — Baden

Going from right to the center is going left.

2) It doesn't matter what Johnson says. — Baden

Right. The implementation of policies and their outcome takes a long time. Yet discourse is important in politics.

5) I don't know how many there are. — Baden

Me neither. Likely the number is as obscure as the number of 'Cultural Marxists' in universities brainwashing new generations of students to the leftist/woke cause.

6) "Brextremists" might be a more accurate term as they're not all on the right. — Baden

Ok. But that number is small, I will still argue. Especially after Brexit has happened. If people would be logical, you would need a new definition. But perhaps not. Perhaps "Brexiteers" will continue to be present after decades from now: those Britons/english who cherish Brexit and think that Brexit was equivalent of winning the Battle of Britain in 1940 against the German Luftwaffe. That surely sound "Brextremism" today. Who knows.

So, my claim is (and it's just a theory, obviously) that Johnson will pivot away from his hard Brexit line because that will make it easier for him to make a trade deal and allay the risk of a new no-deal exit, which would have disastrous economic implications. He can drop the pretence of ideological commitment now because he has castrated Farage as a political player. And his history shows he's generally pro-European, so I expect his focus to be on maintaining his economic bona-fides rather on trying to win any more Brextremist beauty contests. This is all just another way of saying it's about realpolitik. — Baden

Forgetting about the UKIP/Brexit Party/Farage nonsense surely happens, because the Brexit party is already something of the past. In the end they have nothing to do with the conservative party. I don't think that this even means going anywhere on the political spectrum, left or right.

And a lot of people that voted for Brexit have nothing against being "pro-European", if that "pro-European" means trade with Europe (and participation in NATO). It's trade just like with the US or other countries.

I think Europeans will both get over very quickly with the UK not being a member of the EU. The UK has always been a separate island from Europe, literally, and it was a late comer to the EEC. Soon it will be seen as the historical 'normal' of the UK being separate from the EU. And things will be rather OK.

Going from right to the center is going left. — ssu

Semantics alert! >>'Going left' can mean moving left and aiming for the center or moving left and aiming for the left, with the latter being the more natural interpretation and also the one that could make my point seem less plausible. So, I was disambiguating.

The rest I won't quibble with.

You didn't answer my question? — Punshhh

Sorry, @Punshhh, I didn’t see your last question. Give it to me again.

Or alternatively you could have paid attention to the SNP, which you didn't, which is why you now think I have magical powers.

I think ‘Brexit’ is settled. (What an ugly neologism it has been, by the way.) It’s not done, but it’s decided, Of course the details will now be thrashed out over years but with Johnson’s win, it’s no longer a ‘will it happen or not’ cliff-hanger. ‘All over bar the shouting’ might be an appropriate cliche.

Or alternatively you could have paid attention to the SNP, which you didn't, which is why you now think I have magical powers.

Of course I never asked what the SNP ran on. And I know you don’t have magical powers

This is what I wrote,


Are you familiar with British politics?

Johnson got into power on the backs of the poor, to whom he made populist promises. Let's see if he forgets all about them now he's in control. Andrew Niel regarded as the most erudite commentator in the UK, asked Tory's repeatedly through the night what they will do for these poor people and received no answer and little comprehension of the issue.

I'll qualify it by saying blue collar voters rather than "the poor".