Try to define "object". Now try to define "subject". — khaled
That’s mistaken I believe. The ‘phenomenon’ is all there is for us - as opposed to the negative sense of noumenon. He is explicit enough about that I felt? — I like sushi
I’m talking more about Kant’s variation- that we as subjects have representations of the outside world (the phenomenon, the object).
— Xtrix
That’s mistaken I believe. The ‘phenomenon’ is all there is for us — I like sushi
It is also mistaken to say “the phenomenon is all there is for us”, for such claim disallows the possibility for any and all pure a priori rational activity, or, that which occurs in us without any empirical intuition connected to it. — Mww
It is my conviction that pure mathematical construction enables us to discover the concepts and the laws connecting them which give us the key to the understanding of the phenomena of Nature. Experience can of course guide us in our choice of serviceable mathematical concepts; it cannot possibly be the source from which they are derived; experience of course remains the sole criterion of the serviceability of a mathematical construction for physics, but the truly creative principle resides in mathematics. — Einstein, A. (1933). On the Method of Theoretical Physics. Lecture delivered on 10 June 1933 at Oxford University.
The issue is the terms have various applications in different fields of interest. — I like sushi
From the Kantian epistemological thesis, yes, it is a mistake: we as subjects have representations of the outside world, but they are not phenomena. — Mww
Phenomena are “...undetermined objects of empirical intuition...”, thus not technically representations. — Mww
There is only phenomenal experience as that is all the experience there can be — I like sushi
.....intuitions without concepts are blind.” — I like sushi
You cannot have ‘rational activity’ without experience — I like sushi
In terms of "the philosophical basis for modern science" (which was also being discussed) what has Kant contributed? — Galuchat
but they are not phenomena.
— Mww
Of course they are. — Xtrix
The phenomenal world is the world of representations. — Xtrix
All else is noumenonal, the thing in itself. This isn't that hard. — Xtrix
True, but that doesn’t say phenomena are representations. If it did, it would be tautological, re: the phenomenal world is the world of phenomena. Thus, to have meaning, either it is not the world of representations, or phenomena are not representations. Take your pick. — Mww
Subject is the referent of any activity related to consciousness and/or subconscious.
Object is what is outside the subject.
Some (few) philosophers identify it, but the distinction is clear at the analytical level. — David Mo
Forget Kant and get back to me. — Galuchat
In Kant, phenomena are only experienced through our representations. — Xtrix
If your system says phenomena are experienced through representations, so be it. Just don’t call it the Kantian system. — Mww
Real physical objects external to us, are experienced through our representations. — Mww
"What is extended in space, and hence the objective, material world in general, exists as such simply and solely in our representation, and that it is false and indeed absurd to attribute to it, as such, an existence outside all representation and independent of the knowing subject, and so to assume a matter positively and absolutely existing in itself." — Xtrix
If they're physical objects, or anything else whatsoever, then they're representations. — Xtrix
Real physical objects external to us, are experienced through our representations.
— Mww
This is not Kant at all. Nor would he ever make any such claims. — Xtrix
this is introductory stuff. Not difficult. — Xtrix
But that assumes our representations are not based on something related existing outside and independent of the knowing subject. — Marchesk
Correct. Representations for us, re: the human cognitive system. That does not say anything whatsoever about the object itself. — Mww
But they are real physical objects nonetheless. — Mww
Your Schopenhauer is pre-dated by: — Mww
Agreed. Makes me wonder why you’re having so much trouble with it. — Mww
we as subjects have representations of the outside world, but they are not phenomena. — Mww
phenomena and representation are the same thing, otherwise there would be no need for the idea of the thing in itself. — Xtrix
Phenomena and representation are different qualifications of the same thing, that being the external object. — Mww
Representations are general things known a priori, phenomena are unknown particulars. — Mww
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