Yeah.....just think of how many meanings can be changed merely by gutting a quotation. — Mww
Noumenon = relative to appearance. — Xtrix
OK, but per consciousness, almost everybody in quantum mechanics denies that consciousness causes collapse. — Andrew M
Welcome, Tim.eft is the question of Kant and modern science. For the purposes of modern science, Kant is usually ignored. But there's also an inclination to dismiss his thinking, and imo that's an error. What his thinking is about, is things that are perceived, or that reason gives us. — tim wood
But in quantum mechanics (not philosophy) the subjective means the problem of measurement, that is to say, the fact that some objects cannot be known -or even exist- independently of the fact to be measured. May be "intersubjective" would be more accurate, but usually they are called "subjective". In any case not "objective". — David Mo
“...objects are quite unknown to us in themselves, and what we call outward objects, are nothing else but mere representations of our sensibility...”
(B45)
Simple substitution, object in itself for thing in itself. It is done by the author repeatedly. Please show how my argument is wrong. — Mww
Wilfrid Sellars described the task of philosophy as explaining how things, in the broadest sense of term, hang together, in the broadest sense of the term. (Substitute “exploring” for “explaining” and you’d have a good mission statement for the Mindscape podcast.) Few modern thinkers have pursued this goal more energetically, creatively, and entertainingly than Daniel Dennett. One of the most respected philosophers of our time, Dennett’s work has ranged over topics such as consciousness, artificial intelligence, metaphysics, free will, evolutionary biology, epistemology, and naturalism, always with an eye on our best scientific understanding of the phenomenon in question. His thinking in these areas is exceptionally lucid, and he has the rare ability to express his ideas in ways that non-specialists can find accessible and compelling. We talked about all of them, in a wide-ranging and wonderfully enjoyable conversation.
One meaning of noumenal is ‘object of pure thought’ or actually of nous.
— Wayfarer
Etymologically, yes. But that compromises us with Greek philosophy, which is what Kant wants to criticize. — David Mo
Kant is very much drawing on a modified classical vocabulary and grammar in his use of these terms. — StreetlightX
Metaphysics is not a philosophy about objects, for these can only be given by means of the senses, but rather about the subject, namely, the laws of its reason. — Immanuel Kant
In lieu of agreeing on this whole noumenon/TIT stuff, it's perhaps worth drawing attention to one thing that often gets lost in modern appropriations of Kant's vocabulary: for Kant, the very form of the 'object' (the 'object-form') is itself supplied or imputed by the subject (or the faculty of understanding more specifically) onto the world (the-thing-in-itself). That is, the-thing-itself is so inaccessable to knowledge that we can't even say of it that it is an object, or that it has the form of an object. The world is not composed of objects! Instead, objects are strictly 'epistemological' posits, the form under which the world is grasped, which is itself provided by the transcendental subject. Another way to put this is that the object-form is ideal, and is nothing but a correlate of the subject.
I've always found this to be a far more interesting take on the subject/object dichotomy than the usual reading which substantializes the object (or ontologizes it) as something 'out there' and for which it is the role of the 'subject' to grasp or engage with. — StreetlightX
Anyway, Kant only say in these sentences that noumena cannot be explained by sensibility because they point to an impossible-pure knowledge of metaphysical entities. — David Mo
In effect, understanding represents to itself, on its own accord, the notion of a thing, terms it noumenon, but stops right there, without also thinking schema that would then be synthesized to it in order for such notion to have reality. — Mww
Read Kant in full. — I like sushi
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