Well, after the Whitehouse counsel’s dismantling of the House’s case, let’s watch the spin shall we?

Whitehouse counsel’s dismantling — NOS4A2

Instead of vague opining, how about presenting us with a fact?

Did you not watch the defense’s case?

Either you're an American, or you're a ..........

I caught the first lie ("Republicans were locked out...") on the way to work. Noted above in the fact check. I'll catch the rest over the next few days.

Did you not watch the defense’s case? — NOS4A2

Was there something in the defense's case you found especially compelling?

I caught the first lie ("Republicans were locked out...") on the way to work. Noted above in the fact check. I'll catch the rest over the next few days.

Unfortunately that “fact check” completely mischaracterized Philbin’s argument and left most if it out.

Did you not watch the defense’s case? — NOS4A2

I haven't found a single compelling quote. Not even on foxnews.com.

Do you find anything compelling in the below?




Donald Trump's lawyers defended the president against articles of impeachment Saturday morning arguing it’s the Democrats trying to interfere in elections by seeking to remove Trump from the 2020 ballot for doing “absolutely nothing wrong.”

“For all their talk about election interference, they're here to perpetrate the most massive interference in an election in American history,” Cipollone said in his opening remarks to the Senate. “And we can't allow that to happen."

“They're asking you to do something that no Senate has ever done and they're asking you to do it with no evidence. And that's wrong,” Cipollone said.

Sekulow noted the administration has placed holds on aid to a number of countries, including Afghanistan, Lebanon, El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras. The U.S. withheld $300 million in military aid to Pakistan because it wasn't meeting counter-terrorism obligation, he said.

"You didn't hear about any of that from my Democratic colleagues, the House managers," Sekulow charged.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/president-trumps-legal-team-launches-first-day-of-impeachment-defense

Unfortunately that “fact check” completely mischaracterized Philbin’s argument and left most if it out. — NOS4A2

Unsupported broadbush opining. Facts, please.

Do you find any of this compelling?

Mike Purpura, deputy counsel to the president, outlined six key facts pertinent to the case. He said each of these facts alone is “enough to sink the Democrats case.”

The transcript (which the White House said is not verbatim) shows that the president did not condition either security assistance or a meeting on anything.
Ukrainians have said there was no quid pro quo.
Ukraine did not know security assistance was paused until a month after the 25 July call.
No Ukrainian investigation into Joe Biden took place.
Ukraine received assistance without such an investigation.
Trump has been a bigger supporter of Ukraine than his predecessor, Barack Obama.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2020/jan/25/donald-trump-impeachment-trial-news-today-senate-white-house-defense-live?page=with:block-5e2c60738f08a6950eb48e2e#block-5e2c60738f08a6950eb48e2e

Unsupported broadbush opining. Facts, please.

You should watch the entirety of the arguments. But you admitted you haven’t.

Did you not watch the defense’s case? — NOS4A2

Same thing they've been claiming all along.

Not yet.

If you have a compelling fact to present, I'm all ears. I'm a huge fan of facts and my mind can be changed.

Not yet.

If you have a compelling fact to present, I'm all ears. I'm a huge fan of facts and my mind can be changed.

Then let me know when you do and we could discuss it. Until then...

The transcript (which the White House said is not verbatim) shows that the president did not condition either security assistance or a meeting on anything.
Ukrainians have said there was no quid pro quo.
Ukraine did not know security assistance was paused until a month after the 25 July call.
No Ukrainian investigation into Joe Biden took place.
Ukraine received assistance without such an investigation.
Trump has been a bigger supporter of Ukraine than his predecessor, Barack Obama. — ZzzoneiroCosm

None of which is mutually exclusive to demands for quid pro quo. In other words, all of the above could be true and Trump could have engaged in placing the Ukrainian government under duress...

Then let me know when you do and we could discuss it. Until then... — NOS4A2

I doubt I'll hear anything Fox News hasn't presented as decimating the Democrats' case.

In the meantime feel free to address the quotes cited above, if you find them compelling.

If you don't find them compelling, we're in agreement.

I doubt I'll hear anything Fox News hasn't presented as decimating the Democrat's case.

When you want to try mustering you’re own thoughts on the arguments presented I’ll be here.

When you want to try mustering you’re own thoughts on the arguments presented I’ll be here. — NOS4A2

This isn't about mustering thoughts. That's called spin.

This is about facts.

None of which is mutually exclusive to demands for quid pro quo. In other words, all of the above could be true and Trump could have engaged in placing the Ukrainian government under duress... — creativesoul

That may be accurate. Happily, all but the last of Purpura's six "facts" are false or misleading.

Number six, I'm not sure about.

This isn't about mustering thoughts. That's called spin.

This is about facts.

Many facts were presented. Do you dispute any of them?

Facts cannot be false.

Many facts were presented. Do you dispute any of them? — NOS4A2

Of course.

Which fact would you like to start with?

I'll start with Purpura's six "facts":




The transcript (which the White House said is not verbatim) shows that the president did not condition either security assistance or a meeting on anything. (Misleading, especially in the context of ensuing testimony. Noted in my fact check above.)

Ukrainians have said there was no quid pro quo.(Maybe true, but they have every motivation to lie about this. For reasons I would assume are obvious: Self-preservation, in a word.)

Ukraine did not know security assistance was paused until a month after the 25 July call. (False. See Fact Check above.)

No Ukrainian investigation into Joe Biden took place.(Because of the whistleblower. Trump and Co. got caught.)

Ukraine received assistance without such an investigation.(Because of the whistleblower. Trump and Co. got caught.)

Trump has been a bigger supporter of Ukraine than his predecessor, Barack Obama.(Irrelevant.)

Number six, I'm not sure about. — ZzzoneiroCosm

Here's a fact:

Immediately after winning the republican nomination, someone in the Trump campaign changed the republican national platform to no longer arm the rebels at the time(fighting against Russian influence in Ukraine).

Conveniently forgotten in today's narrative.

Obama supported anti-Russian rebels as a means to deliberately stop the spread of Russian controlled territory in the area. Trump... well look what's happened since Trump has been in office.

Trump has been a bigger supporter of a Ukrainian government being directly influenced by Russia.

The transcript (which the White House said is not verbatim) shows that the president did not condition either security assistance or a meeting on anything. (Misleading, especially in the context of ensuing testimony. Noted in my fact check above.)

Then where in the transcript did he condition security assistance or a meeting on anything? Testimony from the only people who spoke to Trump proves the opposite.

Ukrainians have said there was no quid pro quo.(Maybe true, but they have every motivation to lie about this. For reasons I would assume are obvious: Self-preservation, in a word.)

Presumption and mind-reading. Both the president’s and Ukrainian’s words tell the opposite story.

Ukraine did not know security assistance was paused until a month after the 25 July call. (False. See Fact Check above.)

Testimony from Volker, Morrison, Kent and Taylor say otherwise. All four testified that it was only after an August 29th Politico article (which was forwarded by the Ukrainians with their concerns) that they knew about it. During July there was numerous meetings between Ukrainian and American officials, and during exactly zero of those meetings was the topic of frozen aid brought up. The fact check isn’t a fact check at all. You’re being misled.

No Ukrainian investigation into Joe Biden took place.(Because of the whistleblower. Trump and Co. got caught.)

Speculation and conspiracy theorizing.

Trump has been a bigger supporter of Ukraine than his predecessor, Barack Obama.(Irrelevant.)

Except in the context of the House’s claims to the opposite, it is completely relevant.

So much for facts.

Then where in the transcript did he condition security assistance or a meeting on anything? — NOS4A2

I'm not going to try to convince you. See my fact check, above. Make up your own mind.

"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."

Presumption and mind-reading. Both the president’s and Ukrainian’s words tell the opposite story. — NOS4A2

Again, I won't try to convince you.

Trump is a well-documented liar. You don't seem to care. That's on you. Ukraine had every motivation to lie and no motivation to tell the truth.

History is the tale of politicians telling lies.

I'm not going to try to convince you. See my fact check, above. Make up your own mind.

"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."

Because your claims are unconvincing.

Testimony from Volker, Morrison, Kent and Taylor say otherwise. — NOS4A2

Reference please.

Again, I won't try to convince you.

Trump is a well-documented liar. You don't seem to care. That's on you. Ukraine had every motivation to lie and no motivation to tell the truth.

History is the tale of politicians telling lies.

So much for facts.