I'm beginning to get the impression that the claim "people vote against their own interests" is always levied against people who vote differently than the claimant. He voted differently than me, therefor he voted against his own interests. I could easily claim the same of you, for example. So I think it's more of a condescending accusation rather than useful comment. — NOS4A2
Sounds like you're arguing that electing Donald Trump was a rational choice. The rational choice was Clinton. — Xtrix
Sounds like you're arguing that electing Donald Trump was a rational choice. The rational choice was Clinton.
— Xtrix
What counts as "the rational choice" is always and forever more determined solely and exclusively by virtue of what the individual already believes to be the case. — creativesoul
People make irrational choices all the time, for many reasons. If you decide on a goal and to your best ability, given the available evidence, make a choice which you've concluded is in service of that goal, then you're being rational. There's always a chance you're wrong, of course. Mistakes happen, etc.
Depends why you want lower taxes.
What counts as "the rational choice" is always and forever more determined solely and exclusively by virtue of what the individual already believes to be the case.
— creativesoul
The rational choice is whatever the person believes to be the case? — Xtrix
I don't really follow you here. Are you arguing, therefore, that either choice was rational if the person making the choice believed it to be?
seconds ago — Xtrix
If you pay private insurance, you're paying more than you would with taxes with less coverage. You can get covered for everything I mentioned and more for less $$$ overall when you choose a socialized system.
Actually, America has a much poorer healthcare system than other countries with socialized healthcare systems. We rank 55th globally for maternal health outcomes.... Behind Russia! Our sworn mortal enemy! (Jk) — Artemis
America likes to pretend it and its basically unfettered capitalism with almost zero social safety net are the holy grail for innovation, but in reality, we're really scrambling to stay in the world leadership for that.
The top two are Switzerland and Sweden, which both have heavily socialist democratic governments.
errr... I'm not American so I've got excellent social security but I do pay about 52% taxes after deductibles. I wouldn't know what a realistic upper middle class US family income would look like.
people don't take out insurance and can't afford healthcare out of pocket then that's not my problem. That the majority of americans make stupid choices by not getting insurance, or waiting with it until they have a pre-existing condition, doesn't mean I should pay for those bad decisions; — Benkei
Bizarre the way Americans talk about Sanders. He's a middle-of-the-road Social Democrat advocating for stuff that most of the developed world takes for granted. That's about it. The rest is figments of diseased political imaginations. — Baden
errr... I'm not American so I've got excellent social security but I do pay about 52% taxes after deductibles. I wouldn't know what a realistic upper middle class US family income would look like. — Benkei
What if the conservative's goal is "preserve traditional marriage" or "have more money in my pocket by paying less taxes." How are their decisions irrational? — BitconnectCarlos
What counts as "the rational choice" is always and forever more determined solely and exclusively by virtue of what the individual already believes to be the case.
— creativesoul
The rational choice is whatever the person believes to be the case?
— Xtrix
No, the rational choice is not merely whatever the person believes to be the case. The rational choice is whatever choice follows from those beliefs. — creativesoul
It's not about making decisions based upon true belief. — creativesoul
Not exactly. Either choice is, was, and will always be a rational one, if and only if, it followed from what they already believed to be the case. When someone makes a choice that makes perfect sense in light of many or most of their pre-existing beliefs, then they are involved in rational thinking. That's just how it works. — creativesoul
If someone thought that getting rid of career politicians like Hillary Clinton was better than having someone like Trump in office, then it would be perfectly consistent and thus rational for them to vote Trump. — creativesoul
I'm not American so I've got excellent social security but I do pay about 52% taxes after deductibles. I wouldn't know what a realistic upper middle class US family income would look like. — Benkei
What decisions?
We can argue about why they have this goal, as I want to do and in which there's interesting research about,
If you decide on a goal and to your best ability, given the available evidence, make a choice which you've concluded is in service of that goal, then you're being rational.
The manufactured irrationality of their hierarchy. Meaning sacrificing all other values, which are in themselves (or collectively) of greater importance and greater benefit, for one value -- like transgender bathroom rights or traditional marriage or anything like that -- because you "feel" like it, is not only a mistake but an irrational choice.
The fact that even their choices made for their stated goals often have the opposite effect.
Frankly, I don't see any easy way to resolve this. I mean don't get me wrong there there are insane religious extremists who would really highly value, say, sanctity and in group loyalty but I have no idea how I would go about convincing them that it's "rational" to adopt a more balanced view when their beliefs are tied up in their scriptures and weird psychological quirks. I just don't know. — BitconnectCarlos
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