Of course, yes, and by participating in the abortion thread you are showing where your focus is, or is that not the case? — DingoJones
You implied it has to do with them not being eligible for moral judgement while in the case of abortion you can do so with the mother at least. Is that right? — DingoJones
In the case of voluntary intercourse by individuals aware of the possible consequences:
Killing a living being is a tragic matter.
So,
Needlessly putting oneself in a situation where one may have to kill a living being is immoral. — Tzeentch
↪DingoJones I can't give you a conclusive answer to that. In myself, and almost every living thing I meet, I observe a strong affinity with life. Any attempts to quantify that objectively would be futile. It is an intuition. — Tzeentch
Life and death are natural, and on their own neither moral nor immoral. Perhaps it would be better to say all premature death is tragic. But then again, when an elder dies naturally of old age it may cause grief in their relatives, and is that not tragic? — Tzeentch
The matter of morality, at least, becomes more clear when a human decides to voluntarily end life prematurely, whether that be by stomping on a bug that did them no harm, or chopping down a tree for no reason, or killing an unwanted fetus. — Tzeentch
I see. So your morality is intuition based? — DingoJones
I should have asked before...how are you using “tragedy” here? If death and tragedy are both natural, how can an abortion be morally wrong on the basis of a tragic loss of life? — DingoJones
Thats the really tough bit, what reasons count as good ones? — DingoJones
Two points. I'm interested in your grounds for this argument, and I'd like to see you shed the moral appeal. The latter is a form of should-argument. I'm not such much opposed to such as I think they're problematic and need to be made explicit.. For example, if for you abortion is just plain wrong, then your argument becomes "it's wrong, therefore it's wrong," which is of course no argument at all. — tim wood
As to voluntary intercourse, I'd agree that this occasion or that occasion may be voluntary, but in itself I do not think that sex is voluntary. That's just not how Mother Nature made living things (most of the things that are living, that is). Nor is awareness all its supposed to be: we need a more precise understanding, here. — tim wood
And then there's "living being."
And killing a living being? — tim wood
Are you a Jain? — tim wood
Did you kill a fly today? — tim wood
Have a hamburger or a fish-and-chips? — tim wood
We all kill things directly or indirectly every day. — tim wood
Some nearby woods were turned into a mini-mall recently, but no one protests the killing of the millions of "beings" that lived in that woods. — tim wood
Let's try this: a pregnant woman wants to terminate her pregnancy. Why cannot she? — tim wood
Let's try this: a pregnant woman wants to terminate her pregnancy. Why cannot she?
— tim wood
What people can and cannot do is not a part of my argument. — Tzeentch
What exactly do you mean by "tragic," and especially when applied to that which is inevitable and that may be, for those who've lived long enough, a gift and no tragedy at all. — tim wood
As to life being valuable, that appears to be an axiom of your thinking. But it's not for some other people, nor for most animals. You're left, then, with argument as appeal - which can be adequate grounds, imo, if used with care. — tim wood
You may care to think about just exactly what it is that makes life valuable, and what "valuable" means. — tim wood
I'm not sure life has any value whatsoever beyond what the life itself grants itself in the exercise of its abilities and capacities. For people, I think that lies in reflection and reason. As these latter can lead to differing conclusions I suppose the valuations can differ. — tim wood
Just to give you some insight in where I am coming from; I think valuing life leads to moral behavior, and I think moral behavior leads to happiness (of both oneself and others). I am fully aware that there is no way to provide proof of that to someone who is skeptical, so instead I appeal to an intuition that seems to be shared by almost all living things. People can disregard that at their own peril and insist that life has no value to them. I think that will lead them to unhappiness. — Tzeentch
But the question as to imposing my morality on others either by law/reason or law/force is open. In my very limited experience and exposure to abortion, most women are much affected by it, but that not grounds to prohibit or even limit it. As to the biology of it, there's no morality there, and what can be made from it seems to support the notion that it's ultimately a woman's choice, and hers alone. — tim wood
To raise those issues was to point out the general rule - I may or may not have unfairly constructed, but it's on topic. If the general rule is one must take responsibility for one's contribution to the death of innocents, we are all on the front lines, not just pregnant women. And if that is the rule than I am amazed I don't hear much about the other ways most people contribute to the deaths of innocents, including from those against abortion. So, it makes me wonder if the reasons they put forward are really the reasons. Or if they do not realize that they are involved already in other deaths. If people are actually consistent about the rule, then fine. But if they are not consistant about the rule, then their argument, against abortion, may actually not be the reason they have that position. It's kind of a test.Those are all very interesting topics. I'd happily discuss them with you in another thread. I don't see how the existence of other issues should stop us from discussing abortion, though. — Tzeentch
That's good, though of coure they can't. But to the extent they can, they should, yes.By the way, I am in favor of men taking responsibility for sex just as much as women. — Tzeentch
responsibility
/rɪˌspɒnsɪˈbɪlɪti/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: responsibility
1.
the state or fact of having a duty to deal with something or of having control over someone.
Those who want to overturn Roe labor in the grip of irrational want and not reason. As a test, consider their grounds or axioms for their arguments.
Or start simple: how is the issue of an abortion anyone else's business than the woman's and her doctor's? — tim wood
Sure, of course. Something that this person at least forgets to include.That men can and should take responsibility for sex, the pregnancies they may cause, and the children they may sire seems obvious to me. — Tzeentch
I am pretty sure I made it clear that men could take responsibility. They just can't take as much. There is a unavoidable difference here, not men's fault, but there it is. A woman, for example, can in fact take all the responsibility for a pregnancy and birth, once it is underway. A man can never do that. Of course men can take responsibility and many do.It seems to me that you are saying men and women have different responsibilities, not that men cannot take responsibility. — Tzeentch
There's no simplifying: women and men are different. — tim wood
It comes down to cases and considerations. On that, Roe v. Wade is pretty good. Those who want to overturn Roe labor in the grip of irrational want and not reason. As a test, consider their grounds or axioms for their arguments.
Or start simple: how is the issue of an abortion anyone else's business than the woman's and her doctor's? — tim wood
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