I can't do anything about whether you trust it or not. However, I think it's quite clear it looks at averages so I'm not sure the reasons you offer really are an argument against its conclusions.

There is of course an important choice to make if what you describe is true. Do you mutualise risk across the board resulting in lower health insurance costs on average or do you mutualise per age category allowing for differentiated premiums? And what happens if you develop a condition?

If it wasn't for Medicaid I suspect the premiums for seniors would be through the roof if you'd mutualise only across age category.

Now you want to say that the reason it's popular is because of the private aspect of it, or otherwise "people would hate it." Heads I win, tails you lose.
— Xtrix

Yes, that is exactly the case. Straight Medicare would be very unpopular. It doesn't pay enough benefits and it offers no flexibility. It's the private component that makes it work. You should do your homework on this issue. What I state is well-known fact. — fishfry

I am very skeptical about this. What is the evidence? What are the well-known facts? Saying I should "do my homework" is childish -- either you have an argument based on evidence, or you don't. If you do, then give the evidence and cite your sources, and I can check them myself. Otherwise no, you're not a credible source. I've already cited polls that show medicare is popular. Medicare is a government-run program. Case closed until further evidence is admitted, not simply your feelings on the matter and vague allusions to "common knowledge."

Socialism is the most brutal, dehumanizing system ever imagined. — fishfry

You lose credibility when saying things like this.

Christianity is the most brutal, dehumanizing system ever imagined. Responsible for far more deaths.
Capitalism is the most brutal system ever imagined. Likewise, far more resulting deaths.

Better arguments could be made for just these alone. But I don't go around saying silly things like that.

Medicare is a government-run program. — Xtrix

Medicare is a public/private partnership. Bernie and Liz's plans for M4A would abolish the private component. You're simply wrong on the facts.

Saying I should "do my homework" is childish -- either you have an argument based on evidence, or you don't. — Xtrix

Or, as I've stated, I haven't sufficient interest in the topic of health care policy to drill down another level of detail. It's clear to me from what you write that you don't know how Medicare works. It's ok, nobody does till they get old enough to have to find out. That's why Dem candidates can get away with saying M4A and the public doesn't realize that what they're proposing is a much less flexible and much worse system than Medicare as currently implemented. You don't seem to know about Medicare Supplemental and Medicare Advantage. Those two programs are the reason Medicare is so popular. And they're what Bernie (and Liz before she backed off M4A entirely) want to abolish.

Of course this is now all moot as Joe is against M4A.

There is of course an important choice to make if what you describe is true. Do you mutualise risk across the board resulting in lower health insurance costs on average or do you mutualise per age category allowing for differentiated premiums? — Benkei

As I've noted, Obamacare makes the young subsidize the old and the risk-tolerant to pay for more risk reduction than they want or can afford.

Isn't that what Medicare did already? And you've noted it but I'm not sure what your ethical position is in it.

From a pure numbers game, the greater the group mutualising the risk the cheaper the insurance becomes. This explains why, on average, healthcare costs rose less than the years before Obamacare.

For me, policy that benefits the greatest amount of people at the least cost makes the most sense economically. Besides, young people grow old. They will benefit eventually and they can see it as paying more now so they can pay less later for coverage. So I also see a benefit at the personal level.

Isn't that what Medicare did already? And you've noted it but I'm not sure what your ethical position is in it. — Benkei

Well Social Security too. That's FDR's legacy. FDR and LBJ, the two great liberal creators of our social safety net. I'm all for a social safety net.

The problem isn't ethics so much as demographics and economics. I don't feel like looking up the numbers but you know that at the time of FDR there were a lot more workers supporting each retiree than there are today. And modern medicine is keeping geezers alive a lot longer.

I don't know what the optimum reforms would be. I do have a personal experience though. When I was young a friend of a friend who was an insurance salesman sold me a health care policy. I was broke and the policy was cheap. Long story short I was in an accident and the insurance took care of everything and I had no problems. Since then even as a sometimes self-employed person I've always made sure I have health insurance.

The kind of policy I got is illegal under Obamacare. I could never have afforded the Obamacare premium and like most young people today, I would have just paid the fine and not had health insurance. My life might be very different if I hadn't had the excellent care I got at the time.

You are right that with Medicare the young subsidize the old. But it's much worse with Obamacare. I don't know the numbers. I only know that the policy that practically saved my life decades ago is flat out illegal today. I don't think that's a good idea.

From a pure numbers game, the greater the group mutualising the risk the cheaper the insurance becomes. This explains why, on average, healthcare costs rose less than the years before Obamacare.

For me, policy that benefits the greatest amount of people at the least cost makes the most sense economically. Besides, young people grow old. They will benefit eventually and they can see it as paying more now so they can pay less later for coverage. So I also see a benefit at the personal level. — Benkei

Not buying it. Had an experience to the contrary. Obamacare specifically made things worse for young people to a degree never before seen. My own life would have been radically worse if Obamacare had been in effect. So you will never make your point with me on this.

Obamacare specifically made things worse for young people to a degree never before seen. — fishfry

How?

How? — Benkei

I'm afraid I'm talked out on health care policy for now. Thanks for your good questions, I'm worn out!

I get it. I can get tired of certain subjects as well. Cheers.

Saying I should "do my homework" is childish -- either you have an argument based on evidence, or you don't.
— Xtrix

Or, as I've stated, I haven't sufficient interest in the topic of health care policy to drill down another level of detail. — fishfry

So you don't. You might have stated this clearly from the beginning and not waste my time.

Medicare is a government-run program.
— Xtrix

Medicare is a public/private partnership. — fishfry

Medicare is a government-run program. This should be simple stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_(United_States)#Administration

Of course there will be involvement with private hospitals and private insurance, to a degree.

You've made it clear you're not interested in learning anything "in detail," so why bother?

So Biden's planning to get a woman.

Thanks to the corona-virus, Joe likely will refrain himself from awkward attempts at smooching with the poor female vp-candidate. If he remembers the existence of the pandemic, that is.



And no Joe-Bernie old grandpa team. :sad:

So you don't. You might have stated this clearly from the beginning and not waste my time. — Xtrix

Any time you spent in my presence made you less ignorant. It was time well spent.

Of course there will be involvement with private hospitals and private insurance, to a degree. — Xtrix

Those involvements are exactly what makes Medicare so popular; and they're exactly what Bernie and Liz want to abolish.

You've made it clear you're not interested in learning anything "in detail," so why bother? — Xtrix

Your reading comprehension issues noted.

I did not say I'm not interested in learning. I'm actually quite knowledgable on health care policy and economics. I stated that I don't feel like talking about it right now in this thread. Needless to say you couldn't help yourself not to lie about what I said.

@Maw @Pfhorrest et al -

Bernie didn't take out doddering, "sleepy" Joe (like Warren took out Bloomy) the way he needed to on Sunday night, and got crushed again for the 3rd Tuesday primaries in a row. Voters are more afraid of tRUMP than they are of not changing The Rigged System that made his 2016 election possible. C'est la vie, comrades - the vox populi (proles + bourgies & bougies) has spoken - the barracades will have to wait till 2022/24! We Progressives need to downshift now - Bernie needs to suspend his campaign today! - from primary campaigning to general electioneering and support Biden (probably with K. Harris/A. Klobuchar/S. Abrams/M. Obama/O. Winfrey). The MAGAt-in-Chief is hemorrhaging covfefe-19 and Dems need to frenzy like feeding sharks in this stew of chum. Anything less than full support of Biden now by progressives / "Bernie Bros" makes 2016 Redux more likely than not.

FeelTheBern - Curb-stomp the Donald! (Old school NYers effin' know.)

Of course there will be involvement with private hospitals and private insurance, to a degree.
— Xtrix

Those involvements are exactly what makes Medicare so popular; — fishfry

So you've asserted, without any evidence whatsoever.

I'm actually quite knowledgable on health care policy and economics. I stated that I don't feel like talking about it right now in this thread. — fishfry

Ohhh, I see. Got it. Fortunately for all of us, you DO feel like talking complete nonsense. Glad you find time for that, at least.

So let's recap:

All government programs = bad.
Medicare is popular.
Thus, medicare must not be a government-run program. It's the private aspects that people like.
Evidence requested? Yes. Evidence given? None. Reason? "Don't want to talk about it."

Conclusion:

Any time you spent in my presence made you less ignorant. It was time well spent. — fishfry

Lol.

Tbh, I don't think kindergarten Don is going to survive his toddle through the economic and social wasteland that Trump 'Murica is about to become. The Dems could probably run and win with the arse end of a donkey at this point. But yes, Bernie is unfortunately toast. Let sleepy Joe sleepwalk to victory.

BTW:

You've made it clear you're not interested in learning anything "in detail," so why bother?
— Xtrix

Your reading comprehension issues noted. — fishfry

Or, as I've stated, I haven't sufficient interest in the topic of health care policy to drill down another level of detail. — fishfry

I stated that I don't feel like talking about it right now in this thread. — fishfry

What was that about reading comprehension?

Not having "sufficient interest in the topic" is a far cry from "knowing a lot about it, but not wanting to talk about it."

Maybe you SHOULD be excluded from adult conversations after all.

Let sleepy Joe sleepwalk to victory. — Baden

:mask:

Bernie didn't take out doddering, "sleepy" Joe (like Warren took out Bloomy) the way he needed to on Sunday night, and got crushed again for the 3rd Tuesday primaries in a row. Voters are more afraid of tRUMP than they are of not changing The Rigged System that made his 2016 election possible. C'est la vie, comrades - the vox populi (proles + bougies) has spoken - the barracades will have to wait till 2022/24! We Progressives need to downshift now - Bernie needs to suspend his campaign today! - from primary campaigning to general electioneering and support Biden (probably with K. Harris/S. Abrams/M. Obama/O. Winfrey). The MAGAt-in-Chief is hemorrhaging covfefe-19 and Dems need to frenzy like feeding sharks in this stew of chum. Anything less than full support of Biden now by progressives / "Bernie Bros" makes 2016 Redux more likely than not.

FeelTheBern - Curb-stomp the Donald! (Old school NYers effin' know.) — 180 Proof

Progressives, an appellation increasingly reserved to those under 40, will act on November 3rd 2020 in proportion to how we've been treated in this election cycle and to the degree of exigency in the face of a global pandemic, healthcare crisis, and ecological disaster.

Definition of a nano-second: The time it takes for Republicans to convert to socialism when there's a crisis. ("Warp speed" a la muddled Mitch).

in proportion to how we've been treated in this election cycle — Maw

Treated?

Treated? — frank

Racist "Bernie Bros" labeling, excluding questions on Climate Change for the majority of debates, excluding progressives/Leftists/Socialists from major media outlets, "hOw wIlL wE pAy fOr iT?" regarding any public services, and the barrage of negative coverage for Bernie Sanders, just to name a few.

I really wonder what effect this will have on both the election and the future of our political parties in general, if republicans of all people end up being the ones to roll out a UBI.

Of course, they’ll probably find some poison pill to stick in there, that will save everyone from the crisis now, medically and economically, and then as a consequence destroy social security and medicare next year or something.

The DNC went ahead with yesterday's primary election putting MILLIONS OF PEOPLE AT RISK JUST SO BIDEN CAN MAINTAIN HIS MOMENTUM and there is no doubt that MANY WILL DIE AS A DIRECT CONSEQUENCE OF THAT DECISION, so FUCK the DNC.

While my first inclination is to agree, checking myself I ask: how would I feel if Trump cancelled an election for the same reason? Suspicious. So damned if you do...?

While my first inclination is to agree, checking myself I ask: how would I feel if Trump cancellation an election for the same reason? Suspicious. So damns if you do...? — Pfhorrest

Depends on how things are looking 8 months down the road.

I fully look forward to indulging, with full measure of schadenfreude, liberals and democrats asking with incredulity 'But how could this have happened???' upon Trump's next electoral win.

Watch Bernie fans flip out without concessions towards the VP being Sanders if Biden wins.

Lmao Sanders will be VP when hell freezes over.

Besides the VP is going to be a WOMAN because Biden is WOKE.