Nobeernolife
287
Just as a reminder to Frank Apisa et al.... I didn´t think it is necessary on a "philosophy" forum, but here we go. Disbelieving a phantastic claim is NOT the same as believing something: — Nobeernolife
I agree with what you said in your first paragraph...but disagree with these two sentences completely.
You haven't thought this through if you think "doesn't think god exists" and "thinks god doesn't exist" is merely word play. They represent two completely different thoughts. — Frank Apisa
In your diagram you make a distinction between "doesn't think god exists" and "thinks god doesn't exist". This is mere wordplay. — TheMadFool
TheMadFool
5.1k
I agree with what you said in your first paragraph...but disagree with these two sentences completely.
You haven't thought this through if you think "doesn't think god exists" and "thinks god doesn't exist" is merely word play. They represent two completely different thoughts.
— Frank Apisa
If it's true that x doesn't think god exists it means that for x the proposition "god exists" is not true but that would mean x has to think god doesn't exist unless you're claiming atheists = agnostics. — TheMadFool
What I said was that "John does not think that god exists" and "John thinks god does not exist"...saree two completely different thoughts.
If you assert they say the same thing...you are wrong.
You did assert they were the same. You were wrong. — Frank Apisa
Nobeernolife
288
Frank Apisa:
I think we are talking past each other. — Nobeernolife
TheMadFool
5.1k
What I said was that "John does not think that god exists" and "John thinks god does not exist"...saree two completely different thoughts.
If you assert they say the same thing...you are wrong.
You did assert they were the same. You were wrong.
— Frank Apisa
What do you mean? Prove it to me, if you care. — TheMadFool
Here is my comment:
"People who use "atheist" as a descriptor are people who either "believe" there are no gods...or who "believe" it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one." — Frank Apisa
Nobeernolife
290
Here is my comment:
"People who use "atheist" as a descriptor are people who either "believe" there are no gods...or who "believe" it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one."
— Frank Apisa
I can not generalize about "people who use "atheist" as a descriptor", since I personally know only a limited number and I have not seen a large opinion poll about "people who use "atheist" as a descriptor".
I am a person who use "atheist" as a descriptor myself, and for me, your claim does not apply. — Nobeernolife
I have no opinion on that, just as I have no opinion on the existence of pink walrusses on Mars.So you are saying that YOU use "atheist" as a descriptor...but you DO NOT "believe" it is more likely that no gods exist than that at least one god does exist? — Frank Apisa
Define "god" first, then I can try to answer.So...just to be sure we are on the same page...tell me...do you think it is more likely that at least one god exists than that none exist...or do you think it is about a 50/50 proposition. — Frank Apisa
I may ponder:
If all entities existing are physical then non-physical entities don't exist.
If deities are non-physical entities then deities don't exist.
If I hold the premises to be true then I hold the conclusion of deities not existing as true or in other words, I believe deities don't exist.
Someone else may ponder that God exists:
Deity exists.
If all entities existing are physical then non-physical entities don't exist.
If the deity in question is a non-physical entity then it doesn't exist.
If I hold the premises to be true then I hold the assertion of deity existing not true or in other words, I don't believe deity exists. — Happenstance
I am, because they mean the same thing. To believe something is just to think that it is true, nothing more. — Pfhorrest
If it's true that x doesn't think god exists it means that for x the proposition "god exists" is not true but that would mean x has to think god doesn't exist unless you're claiming atheists = agnostics. — TheMadFool
Right, but wouldn’t you agree that not all thoughts are beliefs? If so, then the thought “no Gods exist” doesn’t have to be a belief. — Pinprick
I’d say all thoughts to the effect that something exists or not constitute beliefs. There are also thoughts that are not about what does or doesn’t exist, which are not beliefs, but we’re not talking about those here. — Pfhorrest
Prove that they are not the same thing???
Is that what you are asking me to do? — Frank Apisa
I think what we are missing is that beliefs imply the possession of some object. A belief is something you have. If what you “have” is nothing/an empty set then you don’t actually have anything, because there is no thing to possess.
Example:
X doesn’t have any money. This means X has money is false. But this doesn’t mean that X has no money. This sentence is nonsensical. X can’t “have” no money. Rather, X doesn’t have any money. You either have something, or you do not have something, but you can’t have nothing. Nothing/an empty set is impos — Pinprick
Nobeernolife
291
So you are saying that YOU use "atheist" as a descriptor...but you DO NOT "believe" it is more likely that no gods exist than that at least one god does exist?
— Frank Apisa
I have no opinion on that, just as I have no opinion on the existence of pink walrusses on Mars.
I simply do not believe the claims made by theists.
So...just to be sure we are on the same page...tell me...do you think it is more likely that at least one god exists than that none exist...or do you think it is about a 50/50 proposition.
— Frank Apisa
Define "god" first, then I can try to answer.
By the way, I am not a against religion per se. I think non-political, contemplative religions can have a great merit for societies. Just to get that out of the way. — Nobeernolife
If so, then the thought “no Gods exist” doesn’t have to be a belief. — Pinprick
TheMadFool
5.1k
Prove that they are not the same thing???
Is that what you are asking me to do?
— Frank Apisa
Yes — TheMadFool
Define "god" first, then I can try to answer. — Nobeernolife
I don't know how serious you are about this issue but what I'd like for you to do is distinguish between disbelief in god and belief that god doesn't exist. You seem to be claiming that the former position is atheism; for me the latter is atheism. Also, in your money example, beliefs correspond to "money" and since "god doesn't exist" is a belief, it can be possessed unlike nothing. — TheMadFool
Duck the answers to my questions and hold on to fable. — Frank Apisa
Have you looked into Ignoticism? That seems closer to what you are saying that atheism. — EricH
Nobeernolife
293
Duck the answers to my questions and hold on to fable.
— Frank Apisa
Your questions are nonsensical. — Nobeernolife
Nobeernolife
294
They are NOT nonsensical.
— Frank Apisa
You saying that does not make it so. — Nobeernolife
You are not ducking my questions because they are nonsensical, Nob. You are ducking them because you are afraid of them for some reason.
Wonder what that is? — Frank Apisa
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