You made an assertion...I've asked you to back it up...and you have declined. — Frank Apisa

I did not decline and gave you 2 link. If a 1,000 years of Dark Ages is not enough for you, bite me.

Fetch boy fetch yourself, and provide the histories of the popes you named. Dummy.

Regards
DL

Gnostic Christian Bishop
1k
You made an assertion...I've asked you to back it up...and you have declined.
— Frank Apisa

I did not decline and gave you 2 link. If a 1,000 years of Dark Ages is not enough for you, bite me.

Fetch boy fetch yourself, and provide the histories of the popes you named. Dummy.

Regards
DL — Gnostic Christian Bishop

You are the guy who made the assertion about the first few popes.

I furnished you the names of the first 12 popes.

Now you are asking me to do the job of meeting YOUR burden of proof?

You are new to this, aren't you?

You are the guy who made the assertion about the first few popes.

I furnished you the names of the first 12 popes.

Now you are asking me to do the job of meeting YOUR burden of proof?

You are new to this, aren't you? — Frank Apisa

What is the point of that argument? :lol: I think you two got sidetracked by an argument that doesn't really matter.

What might matter is the evolution of our consciousness and how concepts came to be and moved from one area to another and blended and diverged. All religions are built on past religions and calling one set of concepts "myths" and another "religion" creates a delusion that we need to destroy.

Thank you, Athena.

I have as much frustration with the impact of religious thinking on our society as the next...but I think it is best combated by not being unreasonable.

The Bishop made a statement that NO ONE...not the Bishop or any historian, would be able to establish with any degree of certainty, namely that the first few popes were immoral and decadent. .

I was calling attention to that. The Bishop decided to derail.

It happens from time to time.

I wish I could remember the exact page in my very old logic book from a different time when we people were not so sure of themselves so I could quote it. It stresses we should never be too sure ourselves because our knowledge is very limited — Athena

One of the sages said that whenever we are looking at propositions, we should not be for or against so as to try to look at it honestly and without a bias. That is tough to do. Especially for the religious as they are prone to let their tribal affiliations override their moral sense. That is how trump got elected and how Christians end in the idol worship of a genocidal satanic god that they can somehow see as good.

We have specialized and narrowed our thinking far too much to have good judgment and we don't listen to our elders who know better. — Athena

I am reluctant to agree here as I think the newer generations are better thinkers than those of the past. Inquisitions and Jihads dominated the past and that thinking is definitely inferior to what people are thinking today, except for the right wing loonies who are still in inquisition and jihad mode.

They cannot murder as they did in the past but they still have the same mindset as demonstrated by their homophobia and misogyny. The hate is still in their hearts. They just cant act on it except to discriminate without a just cause.

Education for democracy has promoted fast thinking and discouraged slow thinking. — Athena

No argument. But given that we all live in oligarchies and do not have any working democracies in the world that I know of, does it matter what we think of democracy other than the facts that there are none?

we have a moral problem — Athena

Individually, I disagree.

We have an ethical problem. Left to think independently, the vast majority live by the Golden Rule. We are in fact too nice to each other. Check any marker for evil, death by violence, war, poverty, slavery, etc. and you will find that we are enjoying the best statistics than we ever have.

Back to your main point. Unfortunately most cannot think independently because we are the weakest and most insecure animal on the planet and that insecurity slaves us to out tribes/religious instincts and that makes us follow religions that are run by greedy and immoral con men and liars.

Regards
DL

All religions are built on past religions and calling one set of concepts "myths" and another "religion" creates a delusion that we need to destroy — Athena

Words of wisdom.

Regards
DL

You wrote: "If you know of the first few popes, you will know how decadent and immoral those popes were. They make Rasputin look like a saint."

So I gave you a list of the FIRST 12 POPES (more than just the first few)...and asked you what made them decadent and immoral.

Now you are accusing them of atrocities that occurred CENTURIES AFTER THEY WERE DEAD.

Not a single person on that list (the first 12 popes) had ANYTHING to do with witch burning or inquisitions.

Man up!

Simply acknowledge that you were talking out of your ass when you made that accusation.

Or...continue the bullshit.

It's kinda cute. — Frank Apisa

You might want to read the book "Jesus Wars" by Philip Jenkins. The history of Christianity is full of conflicts and power plays, not so different from Republican presidents wiping out all the achievements of Democrat presidents one pope would wipe out the work of the previous pope. What happened was not at all better than the witch hunts and the witch hunts are the direct result of ignorance and that ignorance was the result of destroying the pagan temples that were places of learning and transmitting the knowledge that gave us modernity when it was rediscovered during the renascence.

It amazes me that Christians appear to know nothing of religious history but have a complete fantasy of their religion.

You might want to read the book "Jesus Wars" by Philip Jenkins. The history of Christianity is full of conflicts and power plays, not so different from Republican presidents wiping out all the achievements of Democrat presidents one pope would wipe out the work of the previous pope. What happened was not at all better than the witch hunts and the witch hunts are the direct result of ignorance and that ignorance was the result of destroying the pagan temples that were places of learning and transmitting the knowledge that gave us modernity when it was rediscovered during the renascence.

It amazes me that Christians appear to know nothing of religious history but have a complete fantasy of their religion. — Athena

One...I hope you do not think I am a Christian...of any sort. I most assuredly am not

Two...part of Christian history has been as savage as the history of any religion that has ever existed on this planet...and that includes the several barbaric ones that existed in what is now called Central America. I acknowledge that...completely and without reservation.

Three...the Bishop made A SPECIFIC charge about the first few popes...asserting that they were immoral and decadent. I have asked him to meet the burden of proof his assertion bears.

Frankly, it doesn't matter if Christianity ends up being the most barbaric religion ever to exist in the entire galaxy in which planet Earth is found. The question is not about Christianity. It is about the first few popes. I've furnished the names of the first twelve...and I am waiting for some evidence that they were immoral and/or decadent.

Nothing so far from the Bishop...AND NOTHING FROM YOU EITHER.

I am not a literal reader of this myth, but this seems to make sense. It follows then that it makes sense for Adam to ignore Yahweh’s command not to gain an education. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

How do you and Watts unpack this sort of talk?

What counts as "knowledge of good and evil"? How does it make humans "like gods"?

How do you interpret the imperative to not eat the fruit?

What, if anything, is the difference between the "knowledge" represented in the myth by eating the forbidden fruit, and the "knowledge" represented in the myth by the way or word of Christ?

How do you interpret the figure of Christ in the myth? As a unique historical person, or as a Christ-nature in all human beings analogous or identical to Buddha-nature and Atman, or what?

Thanks for showing us why women should rule.
They like to gather consensus while that seems to offend you.
Women unite, men divide.
Sure, men have ruined many to make them like you, but most are too intelligent.. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Oh boy, talk about having things backward. I agree with you that women as a group have different characteristics (as is shown by research, cf. Jonathan Haidt, but their exaggerated empathy and lack of protective instinct for the tribe makes them extremely dangerous as political leaders. Especially in combination with the astonishing lack of political knowledge shown by research (by the Guardian, nontheless of women, and that across all age, education and ethnic groups).

Fundamentally, suffrage for women was a big mistake by Western societies.

No need, but I can link you to the appropriate scholars if you want to take better than on hour educating yourself. Warning, it is a boring process. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Not much of an answer to where your prattling abot 20,000 years of peaceful goddesses comes from. I am not holding my breath for an reference of substance.

What counts as "knowledge of good and evil"? How does it make humans "like gods"?

How do you interpret the imperative to not eat the fruit? — Cabbage Farmer

It was not a fruit so stop trying to downgrade the command to a mere fruit when it is the knowledge of everything as everything is subject to the adjective of good and evil.

To your first. In the myth, Yahweh ties knowing the knowledge of good and evil to our developing a moral sense and the command tried to prevent that.

Strange that when the Christian ideology says that we should let god do tour thinking for us.

A great way to make people stupid and unable to think for themselves, even as scriptures tell us to judge all things.

Regards
DL

Inquisitions and Jihads dominated the past — Gnostic Christian Bishop

"Inquisitions" (I suppose you refer to the infamous Spanish inquisition) refer to a very limited practise for a short period of time that led to the death of a couple of hundred people, It was discontinued long ago. The Jihad is an integral part of islam, is ongoing to day, has claimed millions and is claiming countless victims as speak,

In what universe do you have to live to compare those two??

How do you interpret the figure of Christ in the myth? As a unique historical person, or as a Christ-nature in all human beings analogous or identical to Buddha-nature and Atman, or what? — Cabbage Farmer

I use the interpretation of the older and wiser ancient people.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental efforts that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

Regards
DL

Oh boy, talk about having things backward. I agree with you that women as a group have different characteristics (as is shown by research, cf. Jonathan Haidt, but their exaggerated empathy and lack of protective instinct for the tribe makes them extremely dangerous as political leaders. Especially in combination with the astonishing lack of political knowledge shown by research (by the Guardian, nontheless of women, and that across all age, education and ethnic groups).

Fundamentally, suffrage for women was a big mistake by Western societies. — Nobeernolife

That is not Haidt's teachings and you are too bigoted for me to bother with a guy who would make all women second class citizens.

You stupidly forget Cleopatra. Your mother must have been a real bitch for you to hate women so much and think they do not protect their offspring's.

You stupidly forget that in the U.S. 50% of all households are manned by single women.

Who is the most protective, fool?

Deadbeat men of the women who step up to be both mother and father?

Regards
DL

Not much of an answer to where your prattling abot 20,000 years of peaceful goddesses comes from. I am not holding my breath for an reference of substance. — Nobeernolife

Too lazy to do your own research I see. I will give you the opportunity to reject my sorces, while you give nothing in return to refute any of it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yU1bEmq_pf0

If I recall, the punch line and what I put of our previous history is in the last 10 minutes. I imagine your attention span is less than that.

Pardon my tone, if you can, but I hate those who would make all women second class citizens bracuse of their hate for their mothers.

Regards
DL

couple of hundred people, — Nobeernolife

More lies. Just the Cathar inquisition murdered more than what you put.

I guess that you have no clue as to how to research an issue.

You lie as easily as all Christians.

Regards
DL

More lies. Just the Cathar inquisition murdered more than what you put. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

So what is the death toll for the "Cathar inquisition"? And is it ongoing today, like the Jihad?

That is not Haidt's teachings and you are too bigoted for me to bother with a guy who would make all women second class citizens. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I was referring to Haidt`s research, not teachings. I suppose you are blissfully unaware of it and unwilling to check it.

You stupidly forget Cleopatra. Your mother must have been a real bitch for you to hate women so much and think they do not protect their offspring's. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

What does Cleopatra have to do with anything? And no, I do not hate women, I just state that as a group (not every single one of course) have a terrible level of knowledge and terrible voting record. It is quite understandable from an evolutionary biology point of view, but I dont assume you are willing to look into that.

So what is the death toll for the "Cathar inquisition"? And is it ongoing today, like the Jihad? — Nobeernolife

https://www.google.ca/search?sxsrf=ALeKk02U_-oQX7str4HtAb3gTus6L6wjLw%3A1584643992048&ei=mL9zXvy_AtGMggeb6rXADw&q=inquisition+death+toll&oq=inquisition+death+tole&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i13j0i13i5i30l9.4943.5226..7434...0.2..0.120.235.0j2......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71.E5G2ICM9v_g

Estimates of the number killed by the Spanish Inquisition, which Sixtus IV authorised in a papal bull in 1478, have ranged from 30,000 to 300,000. Some historians are convinced that millions died

That is somewhat how research is done, otherwise, one looks like you with his foot in his mouth.

Now if you want an even better estimate, ask google for the Christian victim death toll between 30 ce to 1478 ce, including the death of all the Christian against Christian sects that when on almost forever..

Regards
DL

Estimates of the number killed by the Spanish Inquisition, which Sixtus IV authorised in a papal bull in 1478, have ranged from 30,000 to 300,000. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

OK, I take your word for it.
However, as I said, this was a limited period in history, and it is finished.
But the figures pale in comparison to the Jihad, and the Jihad continues today.
So again, where do you get off comparing the two?

Well, thank you for setting things straight. I am not that interested in the popes, so I will bow out. But when it comes to being our own god, I don't think that is what a person wants. That is a lot of responsibility and I think we avoid responsibility when we can. :lol:

Athena
546
↪Frank Apisa Well, thank you for setting things straight. I am not that interested in the popes, so I will bow out. But when it comes to being our own god, I don't think that is what a person wants. That is a lot of responsibility and I think we avoid responsibility when we can. :lol: — Athena

Thank you, Athena.

In another thread, I responded to someone that the very last thing in the world I would wat...is to be GOD.

Imagine the terror of finding out that you essentially are the only thing that exists...and that everything else is a creation (illusion) of your own making.

You would be TOTALLY ALONE...with no companionship even possible.

My guess would be...if there is a GOD...the thing that GOD does is to stay in a state of constant illusion. An illusion of otherness being possible; an illusion that there is a universe filled with things; that there are other beings with which IT can interact.

But...what the hell do I know!

Oops, hit the post button rather than the review.

Lots of mistakes I did not get to edit.

Sorry 'bout that.

OK, I take your word for it.
However, as I said, this was a limited period in history, and it is finished.
But the figures pale in comparison to the Jihad, and the Jihad continues today.
So again, where do you get off comparing the two? — Nobeernolife

About comparing the God of Abraham religions- they all share the same God, and the same prophets up to Jesus. Jesus is part of the Islamic story but he is not deified. The basic religion is the same, only the cultures are different. Christianity is Hellenized Judaism and Islam is Arab.

It is hard for me to understand the Iranian interest in Islam considering the Prussians hated Arabs, and Prussian Zoroastrianism is mixed with Christianity as much as Hellenism. The Zoroastrian ruler of Prussia freed the Jews in Babylon and order that Prussia give them the money to rebuild their temple. I do not understand why they became Muslims? But I do know Christianity wiped out all the indigenous in their path and that originally it was Jews and only the Jews who were God's favorite people. I think if they had God's truth, it is wrong for Christians and Muslims to change the story and claim to be God's new favorite people.

The Christian Right totally supports the Military-Industrial Complex of the US so I don't see where they are different from Muslims in that way. And I know Muslims who more gentle and humble and opposed to arguments than most Christians. I think if we look at the whole of humanity humans are more alike than different.

About comparing the God of Abraham religions- they all share the same God — Athena

No, they do not. The description of God figure is completely different, and if you think of islam as a sort of Arab Christianity all you do is demonstrate that you have not researched the issue at all. Zip, zilch, nada.

Nobeernolife
341
About comparing the God of Abraham religions- they all share the same God
— Athena

No, they do not. The description of God figure is completely different, and if you think of islam as a sort of Arab Christianity all you do is demonstrate that you have not researched the issue at all. Zip, zilch, nada. — Nobeernolife

What Athena said is absolutely correct. The "Allah" of Islam...IS the god of Abraham.

If you are not even aware of that...you should not be in a discussion of this topic.

What Athena said is absolutely correct. The "Allah" of Islam...IS the god of Abraham. — Frank Apisa

Seeing that Allah opposes everything the Christian god says and hates its followers, that claim would only make any sense if this united god was schizophrenic.
Now go away, troll.

You put me in a difficult position. That is something my Muslim friends never did. I never felt I had to defend myself from their personal attacks. And the way you addressed Frank is shocking. If there is anything nice about you, it is not showing.

It was not a fruit so stop trying to downgrade the command to a mere fruit when it is the knowledge of everything as everything is subject to the adjective of good and evil. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I've heard that some scholars interpret the knowledge in the story to mean "knowledge of everything". How is knowledge of everything "subject" to the distinction between good and evil, on your account? This sounds interesting.

Why do you suggest I'm trying to "downgrade the command to a mere fruit"? Isn't this a rather common version of the story you're referring to -- that it's the fruit they were told not to eat? Don't you think it's at least as likely that I've heard this most common version of the story, as that I'm trying to downgrade anything by speaking of the fruit?

Perhaps you should stop trying to argue against intentions that don't exist. Such unseemly behavior for a Bishop!

Wasn't there a tree in the myth? What parts of the tree were Adam and Eve instructed not to eat of, in the myth you referred to? Do you mean they were also instructed not to eat the leaves, the bark, and the roots? Let me know what parts of the tree they were instructed not to eat of, on your account, and let's proceed. Or do you say there was no tree in the myth, either? Were they instructed literally not to eat "knowledge"? Or perhaps there was no "eating"?

Feel free to retell the myth in your own words here, so our conversation isn't confused by more common versions of the story you're interpreting.

To your first. In the myth, Yahweh ties knowing the knowledge of good and evil to our developing a moral sense and the command tried to prevent that. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Do claim to know the intention of Yahweh in the myth? Isn't it possible that he set it up as a sort of trial or obstacle -- somewhat as philosophers have sought to resolve the "problem of evil" by explaining the existence of moral wrongdoing as a consequence of free will?

Strange that when the Christian ideology says that we should let god do tour thinking for us. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Is there only one Christian ideology, on your account?

What does it say about letting God think for us?

A great way to make people stupid and unable to think for themselves, even as scriptures tell us to judge all things. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I don't suppose you believe this is the only inconsistency in the stack of texts collected in the Bible?

It seems to me you may be drawing the range of interpretations of the myth quite narrowly.