This is a typical example of deception by omission. Yes islamic rule does allow Jews and Christians to live as second-class citizens under Shariah..... but ONLY if they pay the islamic head tax, otherwise they get killed. Plus, they must not pray openly, build new churches or synagogues, prosyletize, criticize islam, or marry muslim women.

So by omitting the fine print of islamic rules, we are left with "allow them to practise their religions", which sounds oh-so-wonderfully touchy-feely nice. — Nobeernolife

And when did Christians start being any different? When?

Or to make this a lot of fun, why would a human want to be a god? — Athena

Being a supernatural god would be a bore I think.

Now being a human god without super powers, the epitome of being human, would be us being true to our instincts that should be pushing us to be the fittest human we can be. In terms of our instincts, that would give us the right to get as many girls as we can get. Our instincts do not know that we live in societies where such antics are frowned upon now that we have become apex predators instead of the weakest and most insecure animal on the planet.

This song says what we should all be trying to do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGCdLKXNF3w

Regards
DL

Being a supernatural god would be a bore I think.

Now being a human god without super powers, the epitome of being human, would be us being true to our instincts that should be pushing us to be the fittest human we can be. In terms of our instincts, that would give us the right to get as many girls as we can get. Our instincts do not know that we live in societies where such antics are frowned upon now that we have become apex predators instead of the weakest and most insecure animal on the planet.

This song says what we should all be trying to do. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

A reminder, I don't dare do Youtube because my internet time is limited by information bites and if I use them too fast, I wind up with no internet until the next billing cycle.

As for your argument, yes, the Greeks made those arguments and conclude with the same reasoning. We should excel to be as the Gods physically and mentally. Socrates is best known for his insistence that we must deliberately expand our consciousness, which totally opposed the Garden of Eden story and the sin of wanting knowledge. Socrates' teaching is beneath Cicero's conclusion that we are compelled to do the right thing when we know what that is. Knowledge is essential to good moral judgment and our liberty.

And it was not Christians who gave us democracy, but they have given us wars we should have not fought and Trump. :groan:

Yes, Christianity is about kings and slaves, not democracy. — Athena

I don´t think Christianity is about "kings and slaves", unless you talk about the old Testament, which precedes Christianity by 3000 years or so. That stuff is really a Jewish problem it seems to me. Jesus was a powerless hippie type who did not interfere with the authorities and in fact allowed them to kill him. So I do not really see how Xtianity has anything to do with a form of government.

Islam of course, is a completely different thing. Founded by a ruthless warlord, it is only about government and power. (Again, this is why the notion of islam being just some sort of oriental Xtianity is so naiive and ill-informed).

:lol: You and I are having a very different conversation than everyone else. I prefer the conversation we are having. — Athena

Great minds think alike. ;-) :lol:

We did not begin in Paradise, but as animals trying to stay alive. Please, please can have a discussion that is based on reality? — Athena

We actually do begin in paradise, from a babies POV. All their needs and wants are being met, hopefully, by a parent and the tribe that one is born in. That heavenly situation changes of course when the child grows up and has to start providing for others and his tribe. That is when duty makes most think that they are no longer in heave. Lest we forget though, gods are created to serve mankind and not the other way around like what G D self serving churches do.

Now what we have to do is determine if harm is done or not. That is self-evident, isn't it? I mean deciding if it causes harm or does not cause harm depends on what is so, not on believing a myth. — Athena

Yes to your first.

Perfect. To your last.

That is a bit crazy, isn't it? I think I am getting a headache: lol: — Athena

Yes it is crazy. your views on democracy and logic and reason reminded me of this link on science.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRLR9jhP_DM&NR=1&feature=fvwp

So it behooves us to learn of the Deming model and rethink our power as citizens in the US. — Athena

You are way more knowledgeable on this issue.

From the little I know of the German and Japanese systems, they have a well organized, unionized work force and those have been shown to be more productive. Meanwhile, many of the Western governments try hard to fight against organized and unionized workers to the detriment of production and advancement. Seeing this is partly why my socio economic demography pyramid theory is based on organized guilds that would bring production to it's highest possible degree.

We are so used to impediments from governments that it is doubtful that our Western societies will move that way.

It seems that many, especially in the simplistic uneducated U.S. that, socialist, to many, means something other than democracy with necessary and required social programs. They see social one payer medicine and education as pure invasive socialism.

Stupid is as stupid thinks and the U.S is intentionally dumbing down it's population just as religion tries and has succeeding in doing.

Regards
DL

Athena
578
I did not say that "w other ideas of the God of Abraham are better". I explained (how many times now?) that seeing how Allah hates the followers of the God of Abraham, it would have to be schizophrenic god of you claim it is the same god. That is simple logic.

Is that really so hard to wrap your mind around?
— Nobeernolife

You obviously have different information than I do, and I don't believe as you do. Is that so hard for you to get your head around? Here is what I believe is true.

People of the Book
Muslims believe that God had previously revealed Himself to the earlier prophets of the Jews and Christians, such as Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. Muslims therefore accept the teachings of both the Jewish Torah and the Christian Gospels. They believe that Islam is the perfection of the religion revealed first to Abraham (who is considered the first Muslim) and later to other prophets. Muslims believe that Jews and Christians have strayed from God's true faith but hold them in higher esteem than pagans and unbelievers. They call Jews and Christians the "People of the Book" and allow them to practice their own religions. Muslims believe that Muhammad is the "seal of the prophecy," by which they mean that he is the last in the series of prophets God sent to mankind. Muslims abhor the followers of later prophets. This attitude serves to explain the extreme Muslim animosity toward Bahais, followers of a nineteenth-century prophet, who in the Muslim mind is false. — Athena

NoberernoLife will NEVER acknowledge that Allah cannot hate the followers of the god of Abraham...because Allah IS the god of Abraham.

Nobeer is not interested in a discussion of what is true...he is interested in venting his hatred toward Muslims. Okay...for some people that is a good thing, perhaps an important thing, to do.

I think the position you should take on this now is informed by something any sailor might tell you: Don't piss into the wind.

My comments were based on the assumption that god exists and is as defined, all-good, all-knowing and all-powerful.

I have no proof of god, neither an argument that stands up to scrutiny nor anything by way of religious experience. However, there seems to be a mathematical formula in re belief in god: the strength of your belief is directly proportional to the amount of trouble you're in. — TheMadFool

Most, and especially the intelligentsia do not see that benevolent definition at all. This quote, I hope, will be closer to the truth of what everyone thinks.

Richard Dawkins.
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”

Regards
DL

And when did Christians start being any different? When? — Athena

Christianity never had a Shariah law, so I am not sure what your question is.

I don´t think Christianity is about "kings and slaves", unless you talk about the old Testament, which precedes Christianity by 3000 years or so. That stuff is really a Jewish problem it seems to me. Jesus was a powerless hippie type who did not interfere with the authorities and in fact allowed them to kill him. So I do not really see how Xtianity has anything to do with a form of government.

Islam of course, is a completely different thing. Founded by a ruthless warlord, it is only about government and power. (Again, this is why the notion of islam being just some sort of oriental Xtianity is so naiive and ill-informed). — Nobeernolife

You cheat. You know the Bible is about kings and slaves and surely we claim the Bible is God's truth, and then you dismiss all the evil in the Bible, because of the Hellenized voice of Jesus giving us a new religion that should have never been tied to the old testament but had to be tied to the old testament to deify Jesus and justify the new religion with a history and the existing large population of Jews. It is very important this God be jealous, revengeful, fearsome and punishing because He is a God of war and slaves are part of the booty of war.

A ruthless warlord like David? He is the role model for Trump and his relationship with women. :rage:

The Bible contains several references to slavery, which was a common practice in antiquity. The biblical texts outline sources and legal status of slaves, economic roles of slavery, types of slavery, and debt slavery, which thoroughly explain the institution of slavery in Israel in antiquity.[1] The Bible stipulates the treatment of slaves, especially in the Old Testament.[2][3][4] There are also references to slavery in the New Testament.[5][6] — Wikipedia

Jesus was an anarchist because his family lived in poverty and the Pharisees, protected by Rome, enjoyed wealth that was built on the labor of the poor, just as it is today. There is no empirical proof of Jesus but to me, he seems pretty realistic and just like many 30-year anarchists today. However, I think the Bible writers gave him things to say that he didn't actually actually say. I think the myth of Jesus was built as the Greeks built their previous mythology. "The word" is a Greek concept and the Hellenized Jews created a better religion than God's favorite did. It is too bad it had to be tied to the jealous, revengeful, punishing and fearsome God and totally ridiculous stories of creation.

Richard Dawkins.
“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” — Gnostic Christian Bishop

LOL, nice rant, but that is the god of the Old Testament, which is 3000 years older than Christianity. I agree, he has a lot more in common with Allah than the Jesus figure.
Now, I have not met any Christians who believe that it is their duty to practise literal Old Testamentarial law, have you?

You cheat. You know the Bible is about kings and slaves and surely we claim the Bible is God's truth, and then you dismiss all the evil in the Bible, because of the Hellenized voice of Jesus giving us a new religion that should have never been tied to the old testament but had to be tied to the old testament to — Athena

I dismiss the Old Testament because it precedes Christianity by 3000 years. Fundamentally, it is a something for the Jews to deal with.
Fact is that the Jesus figure (and it is irrelevant if he existed or not) never fought wars, ordered and conducted murder and rape, had sex slaves, married 6-year olds, and ruled an empire with an iron fist. I could go on, but I think the difference to the "perfect man" of islam should be obvious.

A ruthless warlord like David? He is the role model for Trump and his relationship with women — Athena

I do not know who the fekk "David" is, but David did not found a religion now, did he.

Jesus ---- type who did not interfere with the authorities — Nobeernolife

Hmm.

Did he not throw a fit when chasing the merchants and money changers away from the temple and criticizing the religious hierarchy for allowing it?

If Jesus was not criticizing his religion and hierarch, why did the Jews he preached to threaten to stone him and made him run away on occasion?

Regards
DL

Now, I have not met any Christians who believe that it is their duty to practise literal Old Testamentarial law, have you? — Nobeernolife

Yes. Many Christian homophobe and misoginistic pricks who refuses to grant all souls equality.

Regards
DL

Fact is that the Jesus figure (and it is irrelevant if he existed or not) never fought wars — Nobeernolife

True, except perhaps his war against organized religion, but his promise to kill all apostates when he returns says that if he existed in the past and had power, he would have done so back then.

What did he say about not comming to bring peace even back then but war and turning brother against brothe etc.

Regards
DL

I do not know who the fekk "David" — Nobeernolife

That was King David. The same one whose son was tortures by Yahweh for 6 days before he finally murdered him, all because he was angry with the King David.

Who would torture babies? Yahweh did. Yep, he is sure an improvement over Allah. Not.

Regards
DL

If foreknowledge is impossible, then god can not be omniscient.
As I said, you can not have it both ways. — Nobeernolife

Kindly ignore my previous post. I was distracted. Sorry.

We began by you stating that all-knowing is an incompatible concept with all-powerful. I guess you mean to say that if one is all-knowing one would know the future (foreknowledge) and that would make one powerless to change the future.

I would like to refer you to the common movie trope of the beautiful seer who is in the employ of a powerful king who wishes to know the outcome of impending battles so that he, the king, can be victorious or avoid defeat. It seems, therefore, that foreknowledge, if it serves any purpose at all, leads to power; thus the more complete your foreknowledge, the greater your power (to alter the future)

We actually do begin in paradise, from a babies POV. All their needs and wants are being met, hopefully, by a parent and the tribe that one is born in. That heavenly situation changes of course when the child grows up and has to start providing for others and his tribe. That is when duty makes most think that they are no longer in heave. Lest we forget though, gods are created to serve mankind and not the other way around like what G D self serving churches do. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Yes! When I was a Toastmistess I thought being President was the best thing in the world. Little did I know long term members didn't run for president because they understood the responsibility of serving others was not a piece of cake. :lol: Being a god would be much worse.

You are way more knowledgeable on this issue.

From the little I know of the German and Japanese systems, they have a well organized, unionized work force and those have been shown to be more productive. Meanwhile, many of the Western governments try hard to fight against organized and unionized workers to the detriment of production and advancement. Seeing this is partly why my socio economic demography pyramid theory is based on organized guilds that would bring production to it's highest possible degree.
— "

My introduction to the democratic model was a seminar for supervisors. Number one, as people in a democracy, should understand, the leaders are responsible, and if an employee screws up, the leader assumes responsibility for this and checks to be sure s/he did a good job of explaining the task that was screwed up. Next, remain encouraging, do not blame or threaten because stressing employees makes it harder for them to perform well, Imagine the effect on families if this what people experienced when they went to work.

Consider the way of autocratic industry, blaming and punishing and threatening because displeasing the person in charge can mean being fired and loosing everything, including one's car, home, and family. Being insubordinate is forbidden! Ignoring the employees who point out problems and corrections is common. Constantly demeaning the laborer is common. Now the parent teaches the child to survive in this reality by being as terrible as the employer. But if you check the Bible the democratic way is not taught. The autocratic way is taught and the male hierarchy of authority holds all the power.

We are so used to impediments from governments that it is doubtful that our Western societies will move that way — "

:love: This is too good to last. You are opening the door for me to explain what I feel passionate about. We are living under Prussian Military order applied to citizens. There are excellent reasons for this but it crushes individual liberty and power and we defended our democracy against this. But there are serious problems with the bureaucracy we had before adopting the Prussian Military model, and we were made aware of the problems when we shifted to the new model. Now like the followers of Hitler we think we are superior to all others and this smells of fascism.

It seems that many, especially in the simplistic uneducated U.S. that, socialist, to many, means something other than democracy with necessary and required social programs. They see social one payer medicine and education as pure invasive socialism.

Stupid is as stupid thinks and the U.S is intentionally dumbing down it's population just as religion tries and has succeeding in doing. — "

This pandemic maybe changing our opinion about what it means to defend the citizens. A few people understood our health is a matter of national defense, but now just about everyone understands that.

Yes, the US is intentionally dumbing down the population because the Prussian MIlitary bureaucracy is about making decisions at the top and controlling with policies, that are made by committees that are dismissed once the policy is made. Now all the generals can be killed and the war will go on because not even the generals are needed to keep the beast alive. All that is required is for the citizens to follow policy. I like the Christian concept of the beast because it so totally applies. When Roman was fighting for its life, it became the beast consuming all resources into the defense of Rome as is the case of the US today.

That was a mix of many concepts and I hope it all makes sense. Prussian Military bureaucracy makes the beast very strong but this is not sustainable. I can not think of a better attack on the beast than the pandemic! Kill the economy and the beast dies, civilizations fall. That is the Military-Industrial Complex comes crashing down and right now, life in the US depends on the beast staying alive. That is leading to insane economic decisions. Just like Rome. Only this time besides the threat of China and Russia and the mid-east unraveling, a bug too small to see is having the effect of an atomic bomb on wall street and throughout the economy. The beast must have oil and money or it dies. Get it? The barbarians are pandemics.

Hmm.

Did he not throw a fit when chasing the merchants and money changers away from the temple and criticizing the religious hierarchy for allowing it? — Gnostic Christian Bishop

That is pretty lame. How about letting the authorities arrest and kill you?
You are comparing THAT to Muhammed?

Yes. Many Christian homophobe and misoginistic pricks who refuses to grant all souls equality. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I was asking for literal Old Testamentarial law, not for some random "homophobe and misoginistic pricks ".
For reference, under islamic law, homosexuality is punishable by DEATH.

Again, you are trying to relativize THAT?

That was King David. The same one whose son was tortures by Yahweh for 6 days before he finally murdered him, all because he was angry with the King David. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

So why is that relevant? Did this King David guy found a religion and is revered as the "perfect man" to be emulated by the believers? If not, spare me this nonsense.

Who would torture babies? Yahweh did. Yep, he is sure an improvement over Allah. Not. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I do not care about what Yaweh does in is fre time. Does he say that his believers must hate and fight the Christians, Jews, and Polytheists? Does he give concrete instructions how to mistreat and oppress them?
THAT was my question. If he does not, he can not be Allah.

I have only one comment to your well put post.

Now like the followers of Hitler we think we are superior to all others and this smells of fascism. — Athena

The U.S. is a Christian Nation, or at least that is how it touts itself.

Christianity is a fascist ideology and to think the U.S. is other than that is foolish.

You might have noted that at the end of WWII, the Vatican, which was still Hitler's bank, was instrumental in both manning some German death camps in the Eastern nations and funded the escape of Hitler's top brass in their escape.

Fascists help fascists when they are not trying to annihilate themselves.

Regards
DL

Jesus ---- type who did not interfere with the authorities — Nobeernolife — Gnostic Christian Bishop

That is pretty lame. How about letting the authorities arrest and kill you?
You are comparing THAT to Muhammed? — Nobeernolife

You did not mention Muhammad and neither did I in what I wrote.

Reading comprehension can always improve. I do not mean my imperfect one.

Regards
DL

dismiss the Old Testament because it precedes Christianity by 3000 years. Fundamentally, it is a something for the Jews to deal with.
Fact is that the Jesus figure (and it is irrelevant if he existed or not) never fought wars, ordered and conducted murder and rape, had sex slaves, married 6-year olds, and ruled an empire with an iron fist. I could go on, but I think the difference to the "perfect man" of islam should be obvious. — Nobeernolife

Fine, Let us agree there is no big difference between the God of Abraham religions and they are all based on the same false beliefs and unacceptable behaviors and end this argument.

Except I haven't seen an explanation of when Christians stopped behaving badly. They still have Jim Crow mentality in the South of the US and it was not that long ago when segregation was a very ugly reality including terrorism to keep the dark skinned people powerless. The Native Americans are still not respected and they were treated very badly by the WASP who took their land. And when did one Christian group stop persecuting and killing another? When? What happened that changed the mentality of Christians and lead to them respecting all people and protecting everyone's rights equally?

For reference, under islamic law, homosexuality is punishable by DEATH. — Nobeernolife

Ditto in Christianity and the bible to those who want to interpret it that way. Right wing Christians do.

Regards
DL

Ditto in Christianity and the bible to those who want to interpret it that way. Right wing Christians do. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

That is the correct fact. And now about the treatment of people with dark skins and or Native Americans, Christians do not have a good track record.

Does he say that his believers must hate and fight the Christians, Jews, and Polytheists? — Nobeernolife

Yes. All who do not kowtow to Christianity are to eventually be destroyed.

There is only one god allowed just as in Islam.

Regards
DL

You did not mention Muhammad and neither did I in what I wrote.
Reading comprehension can always improve. I do not mean my imperfect one. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

I did. I mentioned the radical difference before if a religion is founded by
a) a pacifist, celibate hippie or
b) a sex slave-keeping, murdering, plundering warlord.

Please read before rushing to the keyboard.

Yes. All who do not kowtow to Christianity are to eventually be destroyed. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Please tell me the passages where Yaweh directly instructs his followers to hate and fight the followers of other existing religions. Thanks.

Can I expect.... crickets?

Yes. All who do not kowtow to Christianity are to eventually be destroyed. — Gnostic Christian Bishop

Looks true to me. The Christian right not only elected Bush Jr. and Cheny, but they got them reelected after the wrongful invasion of Iraq. We could also speak of the Zionist Christians and Israel's failure to meet United Nations mandates and Trump's approval of Israel's land grab and the Christian Right that supports him.