Aristotle's Mean Doctrine & patience

Lecimetiere

Due to the COVID-19, most of us are stuck taking courses online and therefore lack the benefits of face to face contact. That being said, one question on an assignment is causing some confusion. Since the question pertains to an ethics course that I am taking, I'm not trying to be unethical in regards to this forum and my assignment. So, if I find anybody's answer's compelling, I will thoroughly give credit where credit is due in the proper citing fashion.

The question is on Aristotle's Virtue Ethics: Give an example of a habit that you have (or lack …), a habit you need in order to live your life well.

The habit I chose to explore is patience. I ran into a stumbling block because Aristotle lays certain elements that must be met for the action to be virtuous, specifically, "He must know what he is doing; secondly he must deliberately choose to do it and do it for its own sake; and thirdly, he must do it as part of his own firm and immutable character." The deliberate element was what threw me off as how can one do something deliberate if they are not given a second choice? That is, having patience isn't something you can practice because nature forces you to wait, you have no other options. However, it is the reaction and the emotions you feel in moments where great patience is asked of you. So, now I am stuck wondering about where patience fits in the mean doctrine. Obviously, patience is the mean, and impatience is the deficiency, but what would you call the excess of patience? Is it lazy or forgetfulness, no that doesn't seem to correlate correctly. Since I cannot have a discussion with my professors or peers, I am here seeking a consensus on "what is the excess of patience?"xx

jgill

but what would you call the excess of patience? — Lecimetiere

To measure the degree of patience is subjective, although at extremes there might be consensus. Most would consider it "overpatient" to wait for a reply to a simple question in normal conversation for ten minutes, let's say. But "overpatient" would probably not be interpreted as a pejorative, like "impatient" could be. Just comments.

SophistiCat

The deliberate element was what threw me off as how can one do something deliberate if they are not given a second choice? That is, having patience isn't something you can practice because nature forces you to wait, you have no other options. However, it is the reaction and the emotions you feel in moments where great patience is asked of you. — Lecimetiere

But you can also be patient, practice patience - as opposed to losing your cool and acting rashly out of frustration and anxiety. Or lashing out at those who "try your patience." That is an active, effectual kind of virtue. Is this the sort of patience that you think characterizes you?

Metaphysician Undercover

So, now I am stuck wondering about where patience fits in the mean doctrine. Obviously, patience is the mean, and impatience is the deficiency, but what would you call the excess of patience? Is it lazy or forgetfulness, no that doesn't seem to correlate correctly. Since I cannot have a discussion with my professors or peers, I am here seeking a consensus on "what is the excess of patience?"xx — Lecimetiere

I don't think you are apprehending the mean doctrine quite right here. The virtue is the mean between the two extremes, which are the vices. Courage for example is the mean between cowardly and rash, each of these two is a vise. So if patience is the mean, the virtue, then we have to represent what you call "impatience", or not being patient, as two opposing vices. I suggest that "patience" is very similar to "courage". Being incapable of waiting is like being rash, and waiting too long is procrastinating.

Having said that, I don't think you are properly answering the question unless you can show how patience is a learned habit, as "habit" appears to be fundamental to the question. So you'd have to show how being patient, i.e. not being to quick to respond, and not being to slow to respond, is a learned habit which is beneficial, or necessary for a good life.

tim wood

Since I cannot have a discussion with my professors or peers, I am here seeking a consensus on "what is the excess of patience?" — Lecimetiere

Seems to me patience is an issue of right measure or right amount, obviously implied in "too much" or "too little." The question then is, "What, exactly, is patience?" What is patience the right measure of?

This should be worth a couple of pages and ought to charm your adjunct Prof. out of an A. Keep in mind if you're taking a course then you're a student. Your hard-working and underpaid instructor does not (take my word for it) want some unreadable a**hole concatenation of nonsense claims in which you attempt to reinvent the wheel and it comes out square, while arguing that humanity's best minds are clearly wrong and that you are right - stock-in-trade of more than a few TPFers.

And it's best when assaying an answer to any question to first establish the grounds and purposes, and maybe the history of the thing. All of this, reasonably well-done, is what your instructor wants to see. S/he's teaching you how to think; your inquiry into your subject matter, if honest, will persuade her that she's doing a good job. With that, how can you not get an A? Underlying this whole approach is your taking possession of the question, its substance, and making it yours. You cannot do that without having yourself at least a starting understanding of the matter.

Don't know how to start? Neither does anyone else! So grab some blank unlined copy paper and just start with some thoughts on paper - and don't get up until you have some!

Lecimetiere

But you can also be patient, practice patience - as opposed to losing your cool and acting rashly out of frustration and anxiety. Or lashing out at those who "try your patience. — SophistiCat

Yes, I must concur, and that was what I concluded in my original answer, although perhaps not as eloquently written. The deliberate practice of the virtue or habit of patience is the emotional reaction that you have for whatever is forcing you to be patient. For example, having road rage because of a slow driver would be deficient while not reacting to the driver would be the virtue. But, what is the excess in a situation like that? How could someone act in the extreme opposite of road rage? Where the opposite of road rage becomes a problem instead of a good?

Also, thank you for entertaining my mind through this isolation; the benefits of the modern world are truly marvelous.

Lecimetiere

But "overpatient" would probably not be interpreted as a pejorative, like "impatient" could be. Just comments — jgill

Overpatient would appear to fit nicely in defining the excess of patience. I never really gave much thought in how it should be pejorative, but now that you mention it, it does make sense. If we are adding an element of pejoratives, then maybe "stagnant" or "of having an idled nature," would describe the excess of patience in a more pejorative or derogatory manner. In the same manner, maybe impatient doesn't adequately describe the deficiency while including the pejorative element. Perhaps
"short-temper" or "irascibility" would be more akin. Since the Sphere of Action of emotion for patience would be anger - then it should fall naturally that the deficiency should be analogous to anger as well. What do you think?

Lecimetiere

↪Metaphysician Undercover

I don't think you are apprehending the mean doctrine quite right here — Metaphysician Undercover

From some of the discussions I am having on other threads, your statement appears quite right. I'm willing to acknowledge and correct my original comments. However, I don't believe "cowardly" and "rash" fit within the Sphere of Action/ Emotions. The opposite of cowardly would be courage, and courage is the action of doing something that others fear. I wouldn't call someone exhibiting great patience as someone doing something that others fear. I would, however, agree to call that person "good-tempered" as one surely needs a good temper to not lose their cool.

As to your second point, I believe we've hit a false dilemma, one in which I am to blame. The question that I put up was just background for the conversation, not necessarily the actual question. The answer to that question would be highly subjective, of course, so I didn't want to post a subject that has varying answers. The discussion then should be focused around "patience" and how it fits within the mean doctrinAristotle's mean doctrine.

Gnomon

I am here seeking a consensus on "what is the excess of patience?" — Lecimetiere

One way to describe an "excess of patience" is Apathy. Impatience is high motivation, low control. Patience is moderation of (control over) passion, as in Stoicism. It derives from Latin "Patiens" (suffering), as in the "passion of Christ". So, an excess of willingness-to suffer might be Apathetic (absence of passion). If you are clinically depressed, you may patiently endure your suffering to an excessive degree. Even the Buddha-like Stoics would consider psychological depression as going too far with suppressed emotions. :fear: :groan: :cool:

Apatheia : Whereas Aristotle had claimed that virtue was to be found in the golden mean between an excess and a deficiency of emotion (metriopatheia), the Stoics sought freedom from all passions (apatheia). It meant eradicating the tendency to react emotionally or egotistically to external events, the things that cannot be controlled.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apatheia

Valentinus

I think the virtue of patience is being connected to habit as a method.
If one has the habit of patience, it is because it has provided many benefits in the past.
Aristotle expresses this confidence that how we go about getting better at things is that we try them and they work.

Metaphysician Undercover

The opposite of cowardly would be courage, and courage is the action of doing something that others fear. — Lecimetiere

The whole point to the doctrine of the mean is that there is no opposite to any virtue. Both the opposing things, the two extremes, are vices, and virtue is a middle point between them. So to describe cowardly as the opposite of courage, if courage is supposed to be a virtue, is not consistent with the mean doctrine, because virtues do not have an opposite. That's why we oppose cowardly with rash, as two opposing vices, and place courage in between, as the mean. You may not agree with this, but then you do not agree with the mean doctrine. But if this doctrine is the subject of your paper, you ought to stay true to it, and don't try to change it just because you don't like it.

TheMadFool

↪Lecimetiere

It seems the hallmark of impatience is excessive activity or restlessness; perhaps the word anxious fits the bill in capturing the essence of impatience. The other extreme of anxiety naturally is stupor and patience is the virtuous golden mean between anxiety and stupor.

Possibility

So, now I am stuck wondering about where patience fits in the mean doctrine. Obviously, patience is the mean, and impatience is the deficiency, but what would you call the excess of patience? Is it lazy or forgetfulness, no that doesn't seem to correlate correctly. Since I cannot have a discussion with my professors or peers, I am here seeking a consensus on "what is the excess of patience?" — Lecimetiere

Patience is a virtuous response to an interaction between an imagined (possible) reality we expect, prefer or desire and the actual reality we observe. Patience recognises that realising the difference involves an allocation of time, energy and attention, regardless of where, how or when this is allocated, and by whom or what.

In terms of the mean doctrine, I would say that the two vices in opposition are:
- ‘impatience’: one interacts only with the imagined reality; and
- ‘apathy’: one interacts only with the actual, observed reality.

Both vices are such to the extent that one ignores, isolates and excludes the difference or potentiality that exists as a relational structure between the two realities, which would enable what is imagined to be realised.

So I would argue that patience is still something you can practice because nature ‘forces’ you to wait. It is in how you wait (particularly how you interact with nature in its allocation of time, energy and attention) that your patience is demonstrated.

jgill

In terms of the mean doctrine, I would say that the two vices in opposition are:
- ‘impatience’: one interacts only with the imagined reality; and
- ‘apathy’: one interacts only with the actual, observed reality. — Possibility

Apathy is a lack of interest, whereas being overly patient demonstrates a lack or suspension of judgement regarding an anticipated action or outcome. How long should a teacher wait for a student to answer a question?

Possibility

Apathy is a lack of interest, whereas being overly patient demonstrates a lack or suspension of judgement regarding an anticipated action or outcome. How long should a teacher wait for a student to answer a question? — jgill

How long is a piece of string? You’re implying that judgement is necessary in every situation in which an outcome or action is predicted, and that only time, and not energy or attention, is a relevant factor.

Some questions do not require answers, do not have answers, or may take a lifetime to answer. The patience of the teacher is not dependent on how long they wait before passing judgement, but on the interaction of time, energy and attention they commit towards the student being able to answer the question.

A teacher who doesn’t wait long for an answer is not necessarily impatient. They might be apathetic. Likewise, a teacher who waits years for an answer is not necessarily apathetic. They might be annoyingly impatient about it.

Patience is a commitment to the process - finding an optimal balance of time, energy and attention.

Wolfman

The deliberate element was what threw me off as how can one do something deliberate if they are not given a second choice? — Lecimetiere

For Aristotle, deliberate acts presuppose at least one other choice. It is precisely the faculty of choice that determines, in part, whether an action is done in the furtherance of virtue or not. Absent of choice, virtue is an unintelligible concept. In the case of courage, for example, it is not enough that a soldier routinely does courageous acts, for he could just be well-trained or more afraid of his superiors than the enemy. The soldier who truly possesses the virtue of courage will first of all know what courage is, and what it consists in; and he will also know when he is acting virtuously (it won’t be by accident). Secondly, he will choose to act courageously for the sake of being virtuous, and not simply out of fear or because he is told to do so. If an agent’s primary motivation is something other than acting for the sake of virtue -- for example, acting primarily out of fear, or for glory, or for pleasure, and so on and so forth (or simply acting in some wholly reflexive, unreflecting way) -- then that act is bereft of moral significance.

Obviously, patience is the mean, and impatience is the deficiency, but what would you call the excess of patience? Is it lazy or forgetfulness, no that doesn't seem to correlate correctly. — Lecimetiere

Complacency.

Aristotle's Mean Doctrine & patience

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