• Wittgenstein
    442
    I came across a brilliant paper published in a philosophical journal. I was thinking of the reasons behind philosophical disagreements and why there isn't some sort of consensus among philosophers regarding philosophical ideas. For anyone interested, l have attached a link to the article written by Prof Christopher Daly.

    Article


    The philosophical disagreement is summarized in the paragraph below.

    But are there any successful philosophical arguments where a successful argument that p is one that would convince any perfectly rational, intelligent and neutral party that p ? I know of none. (That is, I know of none for any substantive philosophical thesis.) … If any reasonably well-known philosophical argument for a substantive conclusion had the power to convert an unbiased ideal audience to its conclusion (given that it was presented to the audience under ideal conditions), then, to a high probability, assent to the conclusion of that argument would be more widespread among philosophers than assent to any substantive philosophical thesis actually is. (van Inwagen 2006, pp. 52–3)

    The author discusses 3 different reasons for the persistent disagreement among philosophers and refutes them. I have tried to summarize them.

    The first was given by Russell. Philosophical problems are solved only when science finally tackles them. Philosophers handle all questions which scientists at the present moment cannot investigate or answer. The obvious objection would be that, there are many philosophical problems that will never fall under science such as ethics and further more, it still does not tell us why philosophers can't solve such problems.

    The second reason provided argues that philosophical arguments rely heavily on many other fields where the direction of progress cannot be predicted and as long as the other fields make progress, philosophical ideas will be undermined. The objection to this argument is that, this feature is not specific to philosophy and many other disciplines continue to produce theories that are widely agreed upon despite reliance on other disciplines. There are certain branches of philosophy such as logic ( where there isn't a lot of dependence on hypothesis of other disciplines but there is still disagreement among logicians.

    The final reason which the author represents and refutes is the idea that we may have some sort of cognitive limitation due to evolution and as such, we cannot solve philosophical problems. Our brains were not evolved for such endeavors. This thesis can be refuted. Why can human beings think mathematically and achieve undisputed results ? ( it is very difficult to distinguish the complexity of philosophical problems from mathematical ones). Where do we draw the line between cognitive closure and openness ? While monkeys cannot understand language and their minds are closed to it, we can easily entertain philosophical ideas and there is a sense of philosophical ability/talent. Further more, even if the original purpose of our brain was for survival only, how does that impede us from developing higher order thinking ? The paper presents a detailed critique, so you can check it out.

    The author presents his reasons as to why there is a persistent disagreement among philosophers and l think this view is right. I noticed this too often. The author contends that the methods of philosophy are problematic.


    Let’s begin with our methods. The methods we use in philosophy are both too weak and too strong. They are too weak because, even where deductive arguments are used, issues arise about the clarity or the justification of the premisses used in the arguments. No deductive argument will settle any of these issues: it simply pushes the problem back by introducing new premisses subject to the same issues. Still, the same structure is found in other disciplines. For instance, in mathematics, chains of reasoning ultimately run back to axioms, and the question of their justification eventually arises (Maddy 2011). But this takes us to a special feature of philosophy, namely that the methods used in philosophy are also too strong: the same methods used to reach a conclusion from a premiss set can be turned back and applied to those premisses and to the inferential steps used in drawing the conclusion. Debate about the conclusion is then parlayed into debate about a premiss or an inferential step. To debate means to argue, and any argument provided will be open to the same scrutiny.

    It would be interesting if the reasons which the author rejected can be improved upon or the thesis presented by the author can be furthered developed. Can we devise some sort of philosophical method that will enable us to decide better premises or even reject faulty ones. Or will philosophy continue to remain the way it is ?
  • Colin Cooper
    14
    Its the Nature of philosophy to disagree . The nature of a philosopher is to argue :)
  • Frank Apisa
    2.1k


    I agree with Colin Cooper.

    What he said AND...

    ...the fact that so few people (philosophers and people in general) are willing to simply say, "I do not know"...even if modified with, "...but my guess would be."

    It is my opinion that "I do not know and cannot make a reasonable guess" would allow for a great deal of philosophical agreement...

    ...if only philosophical discourse were not the province of humans.
  • Valentinus
    1.6k

    One kind of disagreement is whether "Debate about the conclusion is then parlayed into debate about a premise or an inferential step." is bug or a feature.
    Maybe saying anything involving the relationships between ideas and things requires being "too strong."
    Daly seems to object that the process never gets to the last word in different arguments. That expectation is itself an element in many arguments.
    There ain't no easy way out.
  • jgill
    3.8k
    No deductive argument will settle any of these issues: it simply pushes the problem back by introducing new premisses subject to the same issues. Still, the same structure is found in other disciplines. For instance, in mathematics, chains of reasoning ultimately run back to axioms, and the question of their justification eventually arises (Maddy 2011).

    This is true of mathematics. However, the vast and productive bulk of non-pathological mathematical results, particularly those that describe nature, do not involve critical analysis of axioms ultimately underlying them. The mathematical snowball was well on its way before substantial efforts to establish foundations occurred.

    Nevertheless, by altering basic assumptions new perspectives arise, sometimes contradicting previously held notions. For example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smooth_infinitesimal_analysis

    Once adopted by a clique of mathematicians, the game of logical development and creativity proceeds as a kind of social effort. How does this compare with philosophical arguments? You tell me.
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    The first was given by Russell. Philosophical problems are solved only when science finally tackles them. Philosophers handle all questions which scientists at the present moment cannot investigate or answer. The obvious objection would be that, there are many philosophical problems that will never fall under science such as ethics and further more, it still does not tell us why philosophers can't solve such problems.Wittgenstein

    Whether or not to trust the results of science (and why) is itself a philosophical question, and arguably something only really becomes a science when a philosophical approach to how to tackle a certain kind of problem is widely agreed upon. That is why speculative "philosophical problems" are only solved when science finally tackles them: a philosophical solution just is the giving of a way to tackle the problem in such a conclusive manner that we'd call it "science".

    I disagree that ethics will never "fall under science" unless by science you mean specifically the physical sciences (as in common today); I see no reason why an approach to answering questions about morality that is just as solid as the physical sciences' approach to answering questions about reality cannot be found, and widely adopted, beginning fields of ethical sciences that can answer questions about morality as conclusively as the physical sciences can answer questions about reality.

    That just shows that those ethical questions were never really philosophical questions to begin with, any more than what was effectively "speculative physics" ever was. The philosophical questions are the ones about how to answer questions about those things. A successful philosophical answer says how to answer them, and then another field takes over actually doing that answering.
  • Deletedmemberzc
    2.5k
    perfectly rational, intelligent and neutral partyWittgenstein

    No such thing.
  • Banno
    25k
    I see no reason why an approach to answering questions about morality that is just as solid as the physical sciences' approach to answering questions about reality cannot be found, and widely adopted,Pfhorrest

    Sure, you could find a solution - but would it be the right one? Would it set out what we ought to do? If you agree with the mooted solution, you would say yes; but if you disagree, well, off we go, disagreeing again.

    There seems to me to be a profound miscomprehension in the idea that we might find the solution to ethical questions; as if they were out there, under a rock or hidden in a calculation. No, we choose ethical solutions.

    And that's my answer to ; philosophers disagree because there need be no one correct answer to the questions they ask. One is not obligated to this or that solution. Instead, we make our choices.

    The nature of a philosopher is to argueColin Cooper
    Not so much; the nature of philosophy is to choose.

    ...if only philosophical discourse were not the province of humans.Frank Apisa
    :up:

    But it is. Unfortunately, one cannot always say "I do not know"; one is obliged to choose. To stay home or to go out? Meat or veg? Sanders or Trump? "I don't know" will not suffice here.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.2k
    Philosophers approach the unknown. If they could agree on that they'd have agreement. But they approach it with opinions, so they kind of think that they know the unknown, and this is what causes disagreement.
  • Snakes Alive
    743
    The reason is because, to paraphrase Rorty, philosophers have no rules – they can say whatever they want.

    The reason for this, though, is hard to say. My guess is that philosophy and its techniques developed out of sophisms developed in the courtroom, and so are designed to trade on verbal confusions. Roughly, we call questions that make use of verbal confusion that is deep enough to go unnoticed 'philosophical.' That is their hallmark. The point of philosophy is just to push these contentions around, adopting rather than examining the confusions, so that philosophy is a kind of professional metasemantic blindness. Knowledge of language in some second-order sense wouldn't allow it to survive as a discipline, as the cognitive loop would snap.

    Watching philosophers talk is sort of like watching a bird with a broken wing keep flapping it, and trying to readjust, not understanding what's wrong. We as humans talk and think in such a way that we fall systematically into certain verbal dead ends and thought traps. When we are deep into them, we call ourselves philosophical.
  • jgill
    3.8k
    Watching philosophers talk is sort of like watching a bird with a broken wing keep flapping it, and trying to readjust, not understanding what's wrongSnakes Alive

    :cool:
  • Banno
    25k
    Philosophers approach the unknown.Metaphysician Undercover

    As do garbagemen.
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    Sure, you could find a solution - but would it be the right one? Would it set out what we ought to do? If you agree with the mooted solution, you would say yes; but if you disagree, well, off we go, disagreeing again.Banno

    The exact same can and has been said about relying on the methods of science to tell us what is real.
  • Metaphysician Undercover
    13.2k
    As do garbagemen.Banno

    Yeah but garbagemen don't approach with the pretense of knowing.
  • Greylorn Ell
    45
    One problem with philosophy is really a problem with wanna-be philosophers. Consider this excerpt from the OP: "I came across a brilliant paper published in a philosophical journal."

    The writer's concept of "brilliant," as an adjective applied to paragraphs of pseudo-intellectual claptrap says it all.

    Philosophers are not intellectually qualified to understand physics, yet they believe that they can understand the universe and its various manifestations, such as human consciousness, without a passing grade in Physics 101, which most of them are incapable of attaining. Such fools are doomed to irrelevancy.

    Put more simply, in hopes of engaging a few philosopher's attention-- philosophers are about as qualified to understand any aspects of the universe, themselves included, as Bugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd in a think tank full of carrots.

    GL
  • jgill
    3.8k
    Put more simply, in hopes of engaging a few philosopher's attention-- philosophers are about as qualified to understand any aspects of the universe, themselves included, as Bugs Bunny and Elmer Fudd in a think tank full of carrots.Greylorn Ell

    A bit harsh, but colorful and provocative. :cool:
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    Philosophers are not intellectually qualified to understand physicsGreylorn Ell

    Some aren’t. Others are. All should be to do their jobs correctly.

    I hold that the relationship of philosophy to the sciences is the same as that between administrative fields (technology and business) and the workers whose tools and jobs they administrate. Done poorly, they constantly stick their nose into matters they don't understand, and tell the workers, who know what they are doing and are trying to get work done, that they're doing it wrong and should do it some other, actually inferior, way instead, because the administration supposedly knows better and had better be listened to. But done well, they instead give those workers direction and help them organize the best way to tackle the problems at hand, then they get out of the way and let the workers get to doing work. Meanwhile, a well-conducted administration also shields the workers from those who would detract from or interfere with their work (including other, inferior administrators); and at the same time, they are still watchful and ready to be constructively critical if the workers start failing to do their jobs well. In order for administration to be done well and not poorly, it needs to be sufficiently familiar with the work being done under its supervision, but at the same time humble enough to know its place and acknowledge that the specialists under it may, and properly should, know more than it within their areas of specialty. I hold that this same relationship holds not only between administrators and workers, but between creators (engineers and entrepreneurs) and administrators, between scientists (physical or ethical) and creators, and most to the point here, between philosophers and scientists. Philosophy done well guides and facilitates sciences, protects them from the interference of philosophy done poorly, and then gets out of the way to let the sciences take over from there, to do the same for creators, they to do the same for administrators, they to do the same for all the workers of the world getting all the practical work done; whether that work be the original job of keeping our bodies alive using the original tool of our bodies themselves (i.e. medicine and agriculture), the job of making of new tools to help with that (i.e. construction and manufacturing), multiplying and distributing our power to do that (i.e. energy and transportation), or multiplying and distributing our control over that power (i.e. information and communication).“The Codex Quarentis: The Metaphilosophy of Analytic Pragmatism
  • Banno
    25k
    But hence the remainder of my post...
    There seems to me to be a profound miscomprehension in the idea that we might find the solution to ethical questions; as if they were out there, under a rock or hidden in a calculation. No, we choose ethical solutions.Banno
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    That is a miscomprehension... of what it would mean for solutions to ethical questions to be objective. It doesn't mean that they are physical things like that. We "choose solutions" to questions about reality every bit as much as we do questions about morality. The only difference is that there is much more consensus on that choice, but still not unanimity... look at all the kooks who deny this or that bit of science.
  • Wittgenstein
    442

    Perhaps it may be unfair to compare philosophy with hard sciences and a comparison with economics, social science and psychology is more useful. Philosophy should be understood as some sort of art, arguments don't matter as much as analytic philosophers think they do. Philosophical truths, if they exist are a product of careerism, intellectual atmosphere. Every philosophy theory had its place in time and broadened over perspective in this regard. If you reject this idea, we will need to dig deeper, as to why philosophers disagree.
  • Wittgenstein
    442

    Philosophical argument run in both directions.We cannot justify our premises in philosophy as we have to start somewhere. I think every philosopher starts with a general philosophical attitude, for example logical positivists were anti metaphysical. Why certain philosophical ideas appeal to us may only have to do with how well they fit with our general attitude towards philosophy. The general attitude is mostly a product of history. If Kant was born before Hume, he could have supported empiricism.
  • Wittgenstein
    442

    Yet, we can find consensus in mathematics and hard science, despite human infallibility. Are philosophical questions such that we cannot help but be biased.
  • Wittgenstein
    442


    Good lord, l like your energy. I cannot be a philosopher unless l act like one. I am just a spectator. Carnap, Poincaré, Husserl were educated in physics and were philosophers too. The list goes on and on. You're not the first person to take a jab at philosophy. Feynman was famous for ridiculing philosophers and perhaps he was to some extent, right.
  • Wittgenstein
    442

    While l cannot predict how our understanding of ethics will be in the future. I want to understand why till this day we have not achieved any sort of consensus or agreement, so to speak. I think this problem in philosophy is universal and present in all branches of philosophy, we don't find any sort of agreement. Ethical questions are philosophical questions and we cannot dismiss them simply because we fail to agree to a single method. In history of philosophy, there have been instances when philosophers agreed to a certain method and a separate independent field emerged, but we cannot expect this to be true for all philosophical problems, even in the future.

    I think philosophers have nothing to offer when it comes to physics or even mathematics. While no scientist can take the theory of relativity to be 100 percent accurate, doubting it's over all validity is akin to doubting whether my hands exist or not. We can devise clever arguments, like Hume's problem of induction and try to present science as only an interpretation of the world but it will not influence scientists in any way. I don't like scientism and science will always be silent when we to understand metaphysics, ethics etc but we shouldn't downplay how successful science has been in predicting the world/nature.
  • ztaziz
    91
    Our minds have been young for years and years...

    It is only now we're learning about topics like morality, mind and even the universe genesis; the way that psychiatry is flawed, how we base mental health on statistically common 'unhealthy' actions rather than direct association with the patient shows that we are young where philosophy of mind is due.

    There are countless other examples.

    You were called idiots by a fare few conspiracy theorists for a while - not to say this means much but the idea of a prolonged youth is out there.

    Probably from thesises as such and their pseudo-serious nature. Stating philosophy has no gain nor merit. It's not politics, it's what a father teaches his son, metaphorically.
  • Wittgenstein
    442



    The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our philosophies,
    But in ourselves, that we are underlings."
  • ztaziz
    91

    It is a thought process that benefits you even through all the heated debate. Having a side at all is good, unless the topic is completely stupid.
  • Michael
    15.6k
    There seems to me to be a profound miscomprehension in the idea that we might find the solution to ethical questions; as if they were out there, under a rock or hidden in a calculation. No, we choose ethical solutions.

    And that's my answer to ↪Wittgenstein; philosophers disagree because there need be no one correct answer to the questions they ask. One is not obligated to this or that solution. Instead, we make our choices.
    Banno

    That itself is something that many philosophers disagree with. Kant thought that the single, correct answers could be determined by reason, for example.

    Why can't you and Kant come to agree on which of you is right (assuming he were alive)?
  • Frank Apisa
    2.1k
    ...if only philosophical discourse were not the province of humans.
    — Frank Apisa
    :up:

    But it is. Unfortunately, one cannot always say "I do not know"; one is obliged to choose. To stay home or to go out? Meat or veg? Sanders or Trump? "I don't know" will not suffice here.
    Banno

    For certain, at times, one must choose. "Yes" "No" or "I abstain" are all reasonable choices at times. At other times, they are not reasonable. For "Trump or Anyone else on the planet"..."I abstain" is not reasonable in my opinion.
  • Frank Apisa
    2.1k
    Wittgenstein
    329
    ↪Colin Cooper
    ↪Frank Apisa

    The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our philosophies,
    But in ourselves, that we are underlings."
    Wittgenstein

    :up:
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    If any reasonably well-known philosophical argument for a substantive conclusion had the power to convert an unbiased ideal audience to its conclusion (given that it was presented to the audience under ideal conditions), then, to a high probability, assent to the conclusion of that argument would be more widespread among philosophers than assent to any substantive philosophical thesis actually is. (van Inwagen 2006, pp. 52–3)Wittgenstein

    Partially agree although I have the feeling people are first human, burdened by all the same biases as every other fellow human, and only then philosophers, purportedly liberated from said biases. This probably has no bearing on the OP's main thrust.

    The author discusses 3 different reasons for the persistent disagreement among philosophers and refutes them. I have tried to summarize them.

    The first was given by Russell. Philosophical problems are solved only when science finally tackles them.
    Wittgenstein

    This is true enough. The moment something definitive, something scientifically sensible, is discovered in a philosophical issue, it tends to break off from philosophy and establish itself as a new field of knowledge. Socrates, being the paradigmatic philosopher, is testament to this view of philosophy as being essentially investigatory of the unknown rather than being a body of facts to be recorded and regurgitated on demand.

    The second reason provided argues that philosophical arguments rely heavily on many other fields where the direction of progress cannot be predicted and as long as the other fields make progress, philosophical ideas will be undermined.Wittgenstein

    This I didn't get. I thought progress in other fields would ultimately aid in the birth of ideas/theories gestating in the philosophical womb since ages. These ideas/theories would eventually chart their own paths and find a niche in the framework of our knowledge. If this is the case, agreement would be the rule rather than the exception.

    There are certain branches of philosophy such as logic ( where there isn't a lot of dependence on hypothesis of other disciplines but there is still disagreement among logicians.Wittgenstein

    This I've wondered about. Logic isn't a language per se - it's not a mode of communication but rather consists of laws on how thinking should be conducted if truth is the objective. What we consider as language like English, Hindi, etc. are mutually unintelligible but it's possible to think logically in all languages; this I take as evidence that logic isn't a language at all but if one insists that it is then, it's a universal language and so, disagreements should be nonexistent or at a minimum.

    The final reason which the author represents and refutes is the idea that we may have some sort of cognitive limitation due to evolution and as such, we cannot solve philosophical problems.Wittgenstein

    This is a real possibility (for me) and for evidence I needn't look far - there are many on this forum who may, with little effort, comprehend topics that are way above my paygrade. Nothing precludes a similar situation being true for humanity as a whole - our reach exceeding our grasp on more occasions than we'd like.

    All that said, I'm curious what your namesake, the foremost philosopher, Ludwig Wittgenstein, would've said about all this disagreement among philosophers. Are we playing language games as they were meant to be or have we mixed up the rules of one language game with another language game?

    In the context of Wittgenstein's language games, I'd like your views on the following matter:

    Among controversial philosophical problems the one I'm relatively familiar with is the theism-atheism debate; one side claims god exists and the other side negates that belief. A key issue in this debate seems to be the meaning of "exists". Existence, its familiar meaning, is about physical objects - things we can perceive with our senses. Ergo, to use the word "exists" for a non-physical entity such as god is to somehow misuse it - importing, without a valid permit it seems, a concept from the language game of the physical into another language game, that of the expressly non-physical and so, quite predictably, we must end up disagreeing rather than not. :chin:
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