Of course the information can only come to light in collaboration with a percipient, but it is all there to be discovered. — Janus
Wayfarer is referring to actual information: — Possibility
It is the potential information that is more objective — Possibility
how do you know it's not a strawberry pie? — ZzzoneiroCosm
But random stuff contains no information, as a matter of definition. A person, or a scientist, can discover information about it - composition, density and so on - but that doesn't mean that it contains information. — Wayfarer
The bag of rocks doesn't convey the fact that it's a bag of rocks and not a strawberry pie? Then how do you know it's not a strawberry pie? — ZzzoneiroCosm
Objectivity is defined by in relation to subjects. Without a subject, there is nothing objective about it. — Wayfarer
But random stuff contains no information, as a matter of definition. A person, or a scientist, can discover information about it - composition, density and so on - but that doesn't mean that it contains information.
Look at the SETI program - it's been scanning the cosmos for 30 years looking for 'telltale signs of life'. No doubt that search has generated petabytes of stored data - but the 'telltale sign', which is ordered information, has never been found. — Wayfarer
I might take a look, and make the judgement that it suits what I understand by "bag of rocks", and not what I understand as "strawberry pie". So I would claim that it's a bag of rocks. — Metaphysician Undercover
It’s irrelevant to our perceived capacity to make predictions about anything at this stage, but essentially it’s still information. — Possibility
It’s irrelevant to our perceived capacity to make predictions about anything at this stage, but essentially it’s still information.
— Possibility
I don’t agree. It broadens the definition of information to be so all inclusive that it becomes meaningless. — Wayfarer
Come back when you have the faintest idea what we're talking about. I won't be holding my breath.
Hint: an image is what it is. It has no potential, and the information content cannot change except by the destruction of the image. — unenlightened
Why don't you show exactly what is the information that is missing from the ordered image that exists in the disordered image. — Harry Hindu
To make it intuitive, to the extent there is order, there is repetition, and whenever there is a repetition, it can be abbreviated to 'and so on'.
Repetition gives the same information twice. Repetition gives the same information twice.
=
Repetition gives the same information twice. *2
Information density is the measure of disorder. Information in this example is not the pixels, but the arrangement of the pixels, not the things, but the arrangement of things. — unenlightened
FWIW - Qualia, as I see it, refers to qualitative potential information or value, in much the same way that probability refers to quantitative potential information. This is information the brain pieces together to make predictions about our interaction with the world - given that the brain doesn’t interact directly with the world, but rather as an allocation of energy (potential) and attention (value) to the various parts of the organism in relation to these predictions. Consciousness would then be the five-dimensional conceptual predictive ‘map’ we each continually reconstruct about ourselves in relation to the world, as a relational structure of both qualitative and quantitative potential information relative to its differentiation from the ongoing sensory event of the organism in 4D spacetime. — Possibility
Methinks that unenlightened posts would be considerably better if he really was logical.Methinks Harry’s posts would be considerably better if he really was a Hindu. :grin: (I suppose that is ad hom, but I’ve put with a lot over the years.) — Wayfarer
So the ordered image has twice the amount of information of the disordered image?To make it intuitive, to the extent there is order, there is repetition, and whenever there is a repetition, it can be abbreviated to 'and so on'.
Repetition gives the same information twice. Repetition gives the same information twice.
=
Repetition gives the same information twice. *2 — unenlightened
Both images are an arrangement of things.Information density is the measure of disorder. Information in this example is not the pixels, but the arrangement of the pixels, not the things, but the arrangement of things. — unenlightened
You still haven't come close to showing how the disordered image has more information than the ordered one. If anything, you have shown the opposite. — Harry Hindu
It certainly contains more information than this:That was a longish post for me. How much information did it convey? My feeling is that repeating myself does not add to the information. But If anyone disagrees, then I refer them to the two wiki pages I linked to earlier, where there is a formal and quantitive argument laid out with references. — unenlightened
At least, that's how Shannon defines it. — Isaac
What information does the above disordered post contain that isn't possessed by your ordered post? — Harry Hindu
Encrypting information is a kind of processing information. And in processing information, you are adding information, like the algorithm used to encode and then decode the encryption. The encrypted scribbles (the effect) would then be a causal interaction between the original information and the encryption algorithm (the causes). The encryption would be about both, and therefore be more complex than just one of the causes by themselves, and therefore have more information than just one of the causes by themselves.However, information that looks as useless as this can be useful information that has bee encrypted. I have also mentioned this in passing. — unenlightened
Each repetition of my sentence can be seen as further confirmation that I did not accidentally write "blind" when I actually meant "bland". — unenlightened
Wiener said
The mechanical brain does not secrete thought "as the liver does bile," as the earlier materialists claimed, nor does it put it out in the form of energy, as the muscle puts out its activity. Information is information, not matter or energy. No materialism which does not admit this can survive at the present day.
— Computing Machines and the Nervous System. p. 132. — Wayfarer
the materialist chestnut that 'the brain secretes thought as the liver does bile' — Wayfarer
Information is information, not matter or energy. — Wiener
Information, he's saying, is irreducible. — Wayfarer
Is this controversial? — unenlightened
the information content cannot change except by the destruction of the image. — unenlightened
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