I didnt realize that it was so complex. Leave unified people who otherwise dont have much in common.

I'm curious about how UK politics will change going forward.

It will drift to the left, the "loads of money" days of the Tory's are over. The public has seen through their wheeze about keeping the population down as wage/consumer slaves while they live it up in their privelidge.

What I found laughable was that down to earth working class folk, grafters, thought Johnson was one of them. How did he pull that off? I think back to William the Conquerer pulling off the same trick a thousand years ago, we fell for it then and we fell for it now.

Lol, sorry I didn't realise you spoke for the whole Dutch population!

That's a seriously deluded view...the British public have become far more conservative in their politics...look at the lead the Tories have established in the latest polls...Conservatives are on over 50% . People have seen through the social democratic (slow imposition of marxism ) model pushed by the liberal left...open borders, divisive identity politics and the climate catastrophe that can only be remedied with socialism lie. It's a busted flush, the game is up, the western world has started to recognise the damage caused by the internationalism (aka globalism ) of the liberal left.

The EU epitomises everything wrong with the liberal left (social democracy) model...that's why the EU will disintegrate unless it becomes what it said it was originally, a club of independent trading nations.

You have a lot of faith in politicians mate...luckily most Brits are very sceptical about them. Only those of the liberal left persuasion want more of them , another unnecessary layer of politics...they really can't get enough of them.

I didn't realise you did so I supposed to just contradict your statement based on the same effort you put into it!

Unlike you I didn't claim to speak for the whole Dutch population...but a assume you agree that not all dutch people are happy with the EU and open borders (which in itself turned out to be a lie...the borders are not open now are they).

Not everybody is happy about paying taxes. Some aren't even happy to be alive. What's your point if not to say that it was a predominant problem?

Only a maximum of 20% voted right wing due to immigration, probably a lot less.

Just out of interest...the population of the Netherlands was 11 million in 1960, it's over 17 million now...would you be happy for it to be 30 million in 20 years time? Is population density of no importance to you?

LOL. My god, you're really badly informed aren't you. Why don't you first prove that's even remotely likely going to happen.

I didn't say it was going to happen , I asked whether you'd be alright about it.

https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=mo4pjipima872_&met_y=population&idim=country:nl:be:se&hl=en&dl=en

https://www.statista.com/statistics/281322/population-density-in-the-united-kingdom-uk-by-country/

Here you can see the difference between population density of England as opposed to the UK. SE England has a higher density than England as a whole....it's the part of the country that most EU immigrants have come to.

Dear @Chester,

You wrote:

1) Freedom of movement led to the mass importation of labour, predominately low skilled cheap labour which obviously puts downward pressure on wages — Chester

That immigration puts downward pressure on wages. I responded with this, that shows the effects on wages of immigration in the years 1993-2017 have been negligible. It was sourced. You now assert:

Sometimes those costs are indirect so wont show on wages...eg, increase in taxes for roads, schools, hospital etc. — Chester

That it wasn't about the wages. It's actually about taxes. You can't keep your story straight.

But let's talk about taxes. In their report "The Fiscal Impact of Immigration", the Oxford Migration observatory estimates that the effects of immigration upon UK government resources have been negligible on the whole.

Studies examining the fiscal impact of migrants have produced different results, although in all cases, the impacts have been estimated at less than +/- 1% of GDP

It also notes that migrants from EU-15 countries: Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden; payed more on average in taxes than UK natives. Furthermore it says of EEA nationals:

In the past few years, the government has started to publish data derived from HMRC and DWP records of amounts actually paid and received by foreign nationals. For example, HMRC data show that in FY2015/16, EEA nationals paid £15.5bn more in income tax and national insurance than they took out in tax credits and child benefit (HMRC, 2018).

Immigrants are net contributors by these statistics. As the paper notes, this isn't a magical property of immigrants, it's more to do with the demographics of immigrants being younger than the ageing UK population. You could come away from reading this study with the impression that the evidence is inconclusive; which means that there's no evidence that they (EU immigrants in general) improve the previously stated things or that they worsen the previously stated things. But:

If the UK's government deficit is something you care about, immigration reduces that too:

One of the key drivers behind these results is that incoming migrants are more likely to be of working age than the population in general and therefore more likely to be working and contributing to public finances.

Simply because they're more likely to do more work (and pay more taxes! And spend money on real stuff!) than the ageing UK population.

You might claim, as in the re-emerging right wing narrative, that immigrants are ruining our NHS. This is very wrong for two reasons. Firstly, the increased use of services from immigration has negligible effects on NHS functioning, and secondly that the NHS uses so much labour of EU nationals it would face devastating staff shortages without them:

Across the UK, EU immigrants make up 10% of registered doctors and 4% of registered nurses. Immigrants from outside the EU make up larger proportions. Restrictions on non-EU immigrants have affected NHS recruitment, suggesting that the same could happen if there were limits on EU immigration. However, these restrictions did not trigger a process of existing healthcare workers fleeing the UK

The immigration of EU nationals is vital for the functioning of the NHS. If you want that in a slogan, immigration keeps the NHS alive.

I'll repeat something from before, if you want to contextualise the strain on the NHS, think about it in terms of the austerity program the UK government has been following for years and years and the effect that cutting healthcare spending has on the basic functioning of the NHS. Though it is better to think of the NHS's strain as resulting from privatizing it ("it" link has more discussion of effects) and cutting spending on the public parts.

Note: if you want to justify the NHS spending cuts because they were needed to reduce the defecit, you should want immigrant labour too.

What if unicorns existed; would you be ok with them?

My perspective on it:

Brexit is actually more of the same from the establishment. If you read the report I mentioned, it speaks about the big variance explaining demographics of support being those who voted for leave being less educated lower income people who feel they've suffered from globalisisation and the distinct wealthy Euroskeptics vs middle class (middle income) more educated liberals.

"Wealthy Euroskeptic" describes the leave campaigners in the government. The people who support it are also for US style libertarian ideas, or making the UK more like that. IE; they're actually supporters of the "free market" and corporate globalism in disguise. Boris Johnson is the person that's sticking up for "free trade" in response to the coronavirus pandemic, for an indicator. That they managed to sell a national sovereignty argument is still somewhat astounding to me.

I imagine it was a difficult sell to get their corporate backers down with the idea, considering that Brexit fears produced immediate downturns in the value of the pound and UK company shares, but public support for those who wanted to Leave also means public support for the people who want to market-ise the UK's social and healthcare sectors and profit off international trade (not from the EU) in the agricultural and industrial machine production sectors more.

Either that, or they found backers that stand to gain better UK market penetration or share and avoid tarrifs (through promised trade deals) in those sectors.

I guarantee that my background is more working class than yours. I am a tradesman with no academic training and I come from four generations of Irish navies who lived in the slums of Huddersfield. — Punshhh

And yet we let you post here on equal terms, to show how open hearted and fair-minded we are. :rofl:

God almighty, you really don't get it. I said mass immigration puts downward pressure on wages...that is an obvious fact. You then point out that wages have only dropped slightly and may level out over time... completely missing the fact that wages would have probably grown. You ask an average taxi driver how good mass immigration has been for his career.

You have to be very careful with statistics and who is behind their interpretation when they are broadcast by biased media outlets.

Two basic economic facts for you...

1) An over abundance of labour creates downward pressure on wages. There is no logical dispute on this.

2) A rapid increase in population density, without pre-planning (ie, our situation) , increases demand on services, thus increasing costs. There is no logical argument against this fact.

Now you can link to some organisation's interpretation of the statistics but those two points I have made clear for you are obvious facts.

That made me laugh because Punshhh knows bugger all about my background.

So you are absolutely fine with mass inward migration to the Netherlands ...and most Dutch people are up for it too. I guess from your perspective the bigger the world's population gets the better...because that's what you want for your own country!

True, but you have shown us enough of your front ground to leave an impression.

I bet it's not as strong as my impression of you jocky boy.

you jocky boy. — Chester

Could you translate that into proper middle-class English for me darling?

The talk of EU nationals being vital to the NHS misses some facts too...

1)The NHS is guilty of poaching skilled health workers from poorer countries who have often paid to train them.

2) The increase in low paid EU workers puts a greater strain (in numbers) on the NHS. Many of these workers qualify for benefits (housing , tax credits etc) so do not contribute greatly towards the cost of the NHS.

I'm not against managed inward migration though...if we need to steal nurses and doctors from poorer countries so be it.

Tbh, I'm not particularly keen on jocks, especially the gobby lefty ones that dominate message boards...I think you understand that.

The Scots have declined as a people...they are the biggest whining bunch of lazy , alcoholic bastards in Europe...that's why I'd really like you chaps to get your "FREEDOM!" as Mel Gibson said.

I'm fine with something that's never going to happen as is everybody else in the Netherlands,. Just like we don't worry about being attacked by dragons.

I said mass immigration puts downward pressure on wages...that is an obvious fact. — Chester

It isn't. Repeatedly asserting something doesn't justify it, evidence does. You have provided no evidence, and the evidence contradicts what you've said.

You then point out that wages have only dropped slightly and may level out over time... completely missing the fact that wages would have probably grown. — Chester

I didn't write that; the effect on average wages has been negligible. The effect on the lowest 10% has been negative, the effect on the lowest 25% has been negative. The differences to those percentages come out as "We're still fucked and need government aid for food and a roof over our heads" and "Mate, give me the small Americano over the tall one please this week, I'm trying to save money".

You have to be very careful with statistics and who is behind their interpretation when they are broadcast by biased media outlets. — Chester

...

Said about the Oxford Migration Observatory. Which briefs the current UK government. And fullfact.org, which is a fact checking charity independent of the press and government in the UK.

1) An over abundance of labour creates downward pressure on wages. There is no logical dispute on this. — Chester

The evidence disagrees with you, and says it depends upon demographics of the immigrant labourers, and that the effects regardless of what they are tend to average out over time.

Now you can link to some organisation's interpretation of the statistics but those two points I have made clear for you are obvious facts. — Chester

It's quite clear that something being obvious to you (or to anyone) does not provide evidence for it, or justify it. Why you would think you have special intuition into these matters when you can't even be bothered to fact check what you write I have no idea.

2) The increase in low paid EU workers puts a greater strain (in numbers) on the NHS. Many of these workers qualify for benefits (housing , tax credits etc) so do not contribute greatly towards the cost of the NHS. — Chester

I literally gave you numbers on that. The effects on NHS function from immigration are negligible and immigration is vital for staffing it.

What evidence would it take for you to change your mind about anything you've said? When direct, sourced counterarguments are dismissed immediately.

So you don't mind if your population density is going up...therefore you don't care if the World's population density goes up...at least be honest about it. I thought you Dutch people were a bit "greener" than that... you learn something every day.

You really don't get reality do you ? You think taxi drivers are earning more than ever don't you? You think delivery drivers are richer than they've ever been , that labourers are creaming it in, that shop workers are loaded compared to the past. Oh deary me.

You already have my words, you don't need to put ones I've not said in my mouth.

What evidence would it take for you to change your mind about anything you've said?

Tbh, I'm not particularly keen on jocks, especially the gobby lefty ones that dominate message boards...I think you understand that. — Chester

But you like being dominated, sweetie, and I am ever so understanding.