So stupid. There's a delay, you know. So the situation you have now is a result of your earlier lockdown. The situation you'll have later will be the result of opening up. And you know that because you're not a retard, so why are you saying this?

Looks like the Georgia experiment was the correct course. — Hanover

Peachy.

Come back a month after opening and if folks are behaving themselves and infections are going down, you can call it a relative success. Of course, if folks are behaving themselves, your economy will still be somewhat screwed, just not lockdown screwed.

Come back a month after opening and if folks are behaving themselves and infections are going down, you can call it a relative success. Of course, if folks are behaving themselves, your economy will still be somewhat screwed, just not lockdown screwed. — Baden

Don't hedge your bets here. If it works, it works. Don't try to say it must've been because us Georgians behaved ourselves if it does work. We're going to have a strong economy and no infections and you're just going to have your naysayer sour attitude.

Lol. Good luck. I'd be happy to be proved wrong. We'll check back on it in a month.

If it works, it works. — Hanover

It's a deadly virus, highly contagious, with no cure or vaccine. Nothing works except isolation.

@frank

This is not the exact video but I think one of the doctors is the same guy and it mentions the issue I was talking about.

We were intubating early as well and we stopped.

ARDS is a diagnosis ICUs deal with a lot. One of the docs in the video was championing the time honored research based ARDS protocol which is known to save lives because it's a lung protective strategy.

This disease acts like ARDS in some ways, but not others and it's not the same for each patient. We need to understand what's happening. It will probably be a couple of years before we have that knowledge. In the meantime we're struggling.

I think we should worry but only to an extent. I don't think we should go overboard and be ocd about hand washing and stuff. We should just avoid interactions unless necessary but definitely not if they look ill. Also, I heard some strange things that there are still places in the world with 0 cases. Where are these places? Why are there 0 cases and what can we learn from them?

Also, I heard some strange things that there are still places in the world with 0 cases. Where are these places? Why are there 0 cases and what can we learn from them? — Julia

Yeah, one of the first things they did in Antarctica was close all the bars and restaurants.

As far as I can tell there's the untrustworthy authoritarian regimes of Turkmenistan and North Korea, and some isolated Pacific islands. I don't know if there's much to learn there. We should look at countries that have had a substantial number of cases but have managed to control it.

Obama puts it well:

It would have been bad even with the best of governments. It has been an absolute chaotic disaster when that mindset — of ‘what’s in it for me’ and ‘to heck with everybody else’

And that's putting it mildly.

I don't think we should go overboard and be ocd about hand washing and stuff. — Julia

Chefs have to wash their hands whenever they have handled raw food, and before they handle any cooked food or food the will not be cooked especially dairy. Maybe 40- 50 times a day. Wash your damn hands every time you change environment, and don't be a whining antisocial idiot.

The absolute ineptness of Donald Trump is evident in putting his "wunderkind" Jared Kushner, who has among other things "brought peace to Middle East", in charge of the response to the pandemic. Yeah, don't follow ANY of the prior plans for a pandemic, even from the Bush administration...

A group of young, inexperienced volunteers was tasked with securing much-needed medical supplies for hospitals fighting coronavirus, hampering the government's response to a growing pandemic, according to reports by The New York Times and The Washington Post.

The group of roughly a dozen volunteers, mostly in their 20s, were part of a broader coronavirus supply-chain task force assembled by the President's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, the two news outlets reported. - The volunteers, who were recruited from consulting and investment firms and began their task in late March, had little to no experience in health care and dealing with procurement procedures or medical equipment

And when you put totally inexperienced people to do something, the result is the following:

two of the volunteers in March had passed along procurement documents filed by a Silicon Valley engineer, Yaron Oren-Pines, who claimed he could provide more than 1,000 ventilators. The volunteers forwarded the lead to federal officials, who then sent it to New York officials, who assumed Oren-Pines had been vetted, the Times reported. New York state awarded the engineer a $69 million contract, but didn't receive a single ventilator, which was first reported by BuzzFeed News.

Just to compare this very typical phenomenon of all kinds of conmen getting into the action when money is floating freely around during an emergency, there was a similar case in my own country where a shadowy businessman suckered government officials to buy PPE from China. It least the "PPE" existed, but wasn't appropriate for health care workers. This case made a huge political outcry, the media was all over it and the outcome was that the director of the government institution responsible for that resigned after the Prime minister said the the person didn't enjoy the trust of the government.

Now that Kushner isn't fired or that even this "little" snag doesn't even cause any kind of turmoil just tells just how utterly bad and totally incapable the Trump administration is. And this is one incident among many, just like silencing the CDC advise on how to prepare to open the economy.

Likely it's worse that we see it to be. And that will have a huge effect on the effectiveness fighting the pandemic. If this was a novel, people would argue that it's too fantastic, that actually a Republican administration cannot be such ludicrously incompetent.

It's a deadly virus, highly contagious, with no cure or vaccine. Nothing works except isolation. — Metaphysician Undercover

It will be one week tomorrow afternoon that NicK has been in Cardiac ICU. I share this for a multitude of reasons, first of which is to let you know that if you have time any extra prayers or energy you may have could be used in Nick's ICU room.
I thought Stroke and made sure that the Fire Fighters were acutely aware of my concern (pardon my sailors mouth) that he had one hour to get to a stroke center and they assured me he was going to a Trauma Level 1/Stroke and Cardiac center. From the time I called 911 and him being prepared for emergency surgery was 22 minutes....they would not allow me in the ambulance, in ER, I had my phone that they would contact me on which is Heartbreaking, leaves you feeling helpless, useless and now I am starting to feel it is almost criminal but I am still in the thick of it so forgive me and some of those kind of emotional based comments.
I begged them to please let me see him before surgery even with both my Indians they said no. We were finally given possible end of life permission. They hurried us down a hall, a nurse and a social worker were masking, gowning, gloving us as we began to run. We got to the Trauma room, had moments with him, met the Thoracic/Cardiac surgeon and I began the question is he going to make it? Dr said he is in the best place possible. I repeated the question and he said I am going to do everything I can to help your husband. I said ok... what is your success rate? He said most. I begged him to get NicK into the most, please. We were able to follow him down the hall to surgery and a social worker who got us in said we could go home and they would call. I said we will be in the parking lot in the car. She worked up the chain and got us into a surgical waiting room for the 5 hr open heart surgery. After surgery I was allowed to see NicK for 2 minutes before being escorted out by security. Since then I have not been able to see him, touch him, stroke his head...it is absolutely Heartbreaking.
The reason? COVID 19. I asked while he was in surgery of the nurses, the social worker how many COVID patients are there at the top hospital we are at. They said a couple. Not a few, not a handful, not a lot, a floor.... they get it but......in surgical waiting when the head surgery nurse was wearing scrubs and nothing more when she told us we could take off the protective gear as it was going to be hours. When she returned to give us an update I asked if I could hug her and she said absolutely and I hugged on her weeping....the social worker was the same.....
I'm not judging any one of anything I am just telling you my upfront and personal experience with a crisis in the middle of this pandemic.
It's going to take a lot of time for Nick to recover and not seeing him, I believe, is hampering his recovery. Not to a deadly point but the process of healing, especially when on sedation for ventilator has got to be having an affect.
So, prayers and enegies if you can, leave passwords with SOMEONE or a password manager especially if you are the company. Please realize that there are unintended consequences in trying to find the balance between lives and livelyhoods and believe we are all doing the best we can with what we have and when we know better we can do better.
Because both are alive, withdrawing life support from either or both can have deadly consequences.
WE are a collection of small businesses and WE are dependant on the survival of both their lives and their livelyhoods and believe me when I say it is an incredibly hard line to walk.
Ps for those of my family here, whom are also friends of mine on Facebook, I ask that you please not desiminate this information as I do have client/friends and I do NOT wish to alarm them until we are further along and out of the woods.
Happy Mother's day to Mom's and happy Parents Day to the Dad's who wear ladies bloomers in addition to their loin cloths.

Though there may have been “missed opportunities”, unlike some countries, these volunteers didn’t sign bad contracts or purchase any crap.

What year did those masks expire in?

Did he have a heart attack? Did he go to the cardiac catheterization lab for a stent?

I am not a chef or surgeon or anything that requires excessive hand washing for the safety of others and themselves. I'm just me and I'm just dealing with the normal dosage of bacteria/germs that exist. Plus one thing you never want to do is get rid of the good germs. Even Jesus said hand washing like before eating isn't going to harm you...in normal settings. Plus, playing in mud is even good for your skin. Lots of people do mud masks and stuff. And I'm not antisocial so not sure why we got there. I just don't like being around sick people, picky people, rude people, etc. And some people are naturally happy being introverted. We shouldn't change the way people feel comfortable.

Though there may have been “missed opportunities”, unlike some countries, these volunteers didn’t sign bad contracts or purchase any crap.

What year did those masks expire in? — NOS4A2

Lol.

Not only did you not read what I wrote, but you didn't even read YOUR OWN link you gave. :roll:

Purchasing with 69 million dollars non-existent ventilators would be in my view a bad contract. (And read the link you gave again.)

So, prayers and enegies if you can, — ArguingWAristotleTiff

You have mine.

:pray:

https://theintercept.com/2020/05/08/andrew-cuomo-eric-schmidt-coronavirus-tech-shock-doctrine/

This is an exemplary way of critiquing state overreach during COVID in a way that's not just a shitty reactionary vomit spew of 'Muh Freedoms" and "Muh haircuts":

"We face real and hard choices between investing in humans and investing in technology. Because the brutal truth is that, as it stands, we are very unlikely to do both. The refusal to transfer anything like the needed resources to states and cities in successive federal bailouts means that the coronavirus health crisis is now slamming headlong into a manufactured austerity crisis. Public schools, universities, hospitals, and transit are facing existential questions about their futures. If tech companies win their ferocious lobbying campaign for remote learning, telehealth, 5G, and driverless vehicles — their Screen New Deal — there simply won’t be any money left over for urgent public priorities, never mind the Green New Deal that our planet urgently needs.

On the contrary: The price tag for all the shiny gadgets will be mass teacher layoffs and hospital closures.

Tech provides us with powerful tools, but not every solution is technological. And the trouble with outsourcing key decisions about how to “reimagine” our states and cities to men like Bill Gates and Eric Schmidt is that they have spent their lives demonstrating the belief that there is no problem that technology cannot fix. For them, and many others in Silicon Valley, the pandemic is a golden opportunity to receive not just the gratitude, but the deference and power that they feel has been unjustly denied. And Andrew Cuomo, by putting the former Google chair in charge of the body that will shape the state’s reopening, appears to have just given him something close to free reign."

This is an exemplary way of critiquing state overreach during COVID in a way that's not just a shitty reactionary vomit spew of 'Muh Freedoms" and "Muh haircuts": — StreetlightX

Is it really? I don't think so.

The state overreach doesn't happen because of the tech companies. It really doesn't. Having meetings over the internet and working from home is something that we'll get used to thanks to the pandemic and surely Google and Microsoft are happy about it, but it genuinely doesn't constitute a government overreach.

What constitutes a government overreach is the length where the US citizens want to create a pre-emptive security apparatus to fight a miniscule group of terrorists and the American reliance on boogeymen being this threat to your existence. Of course, you could have gone the other way: treated the 9/11 perpetrators as criminals and given the case to the NYPD and the justice system as you did with the first Twin tower bombings some years before. And not started a perpetual war fought still in many places.

Of course, a pandemic that is DAILY killing the equivalent number of Americans that were killed in the 9/11 attacks seems at least to me a genuine reason for social distancing and some restrictions. And yes, I think the US would be better off with a real national plan to fight the pandemic. Likely before this month ends or at least in June the US will break that 100 000 number on those who have perished to the pandemic, so I guess the argument for government overreach is a bit strange.

Did you read the article?

Yes.

I ask you, where does the overreach come from? As the article says:

To be clear, technology is most certainly a key part of how we must protect public health in the coming months and years. The question is: Will that technology be subject to the disciplines of democracy and public oversight, or will it be rolled out in state-of-exception frenzy, without asking critical questions that will shape our lives for decades to come?

The fact is that AI gives finally a way for a police state to operate. Before you really had to have a person to listen to the conversations and others to process it. It didn't work, never could. Now with AI you do have the possibility of a genuine all controlling police state, which China is building. The question, who wants to build it and why?

I really don't know what your point is.

My point is that government overreach isn't an agenda of the tech companies. The agenda and the reasons are elsewhere. And just what is the overreach with the COVID?

As once Fidel Castro said: "If I order all capitalists to be hanged, a capitalist will come to me and sell rope."

You think tech companies are not interested in using government to further their interests by expanding government reach for their sakes?

A parody of Johnson's speech lastnight about easing the lockdown lol.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WDzqCUbUQW0

As with the quote from Castro, I tried to explain that companies are surely willing to sell governments what the governments want (even at their own peril). Yet it is the government and the political leadership that decides what it wants. Once some industry is in a dominant position, it surely can influence the government or simply want it's own status quo being defended, but the objectives of the government aren't simply handed down from an industry.

Since the now age old Echelon, started in the 1960's and established in 1971, the US and it's allies have wanted better and better tech for their surveillance needs. You simply cannot think that companies in the 1990's have themselves made this appetite as the interests are as far older than the internet (which itself started as ARPANET for the department of defense).

Because when you say that the tech companies are "interested in using government to further their interests by expanding government reach for their sakes", yep , it is quite different from saying that "tech companies notice the interests of governments and are eagerly willing to offer the technology and service to fulfill those". That's not what you are saying.

You put the tech firms being the starting engines of the "government overreach" and this is what I disagree with. The government isn't the vehicle of tech firms especially when it comes to the corona-epidemic.

Yet it is the government and the political leadership that decides what it wants. — ssu

Oh sweet summer child.