Your judiciary has been compromised for a long time - with Biden, by the way, playing an oversized part in making sure that's the case. The calculus is simple: the state won't save you. It's not about the logic of 'how' to vote; it's about the logic of voting at all, in the current circumstances.

And let's not talk about Australian idealism. Our current government is a US lapdog which is doing everything they can to ape American policy and gut any semblance of democracy we have left.

No one's talking about whether the state will save anyone! Save. No, the state won't save anyone. If the person who says the state will save everyone is your true interlocutor, then let me sidestep.

Basically all I'm saying is, for people for whom particular things matter, its sometimes necessary to take into account nomination of judges. And, when that comes in conflict with the presidential election, thats a hard thing. If saying that lets loose a river of violent anger - idk man. A slurry of profanity, as Zizek teaches us, usually indexes a weakness of thought, or whatever else.

It's a pretty straightforward thing - why are you getting so angry?

Then take it into account. And do what you must. But take everything else into account too. I simply take exception to the idea - not yours - that this is straightforward.

I don't think it's straightforward and that has been my point. what's straightforward is this isn't straightforward. And people aren't equivalent to jews killing other jews when they think on it. of course.

Eh, go tone police somewhere else. When dealing with Ackchyually-bois I consider most bets off.

street.....
ok, gnight

Given it some thought. Neither the sonderkommando nor the katechon are quite the right images. Better are the collaborationist vichy, who, no doubt, argued with perfect rationality that France would be better governed by the French than the Germans, even as they helped the latter send their own citizens to the camps. Flawless arithmetic. "Yes the vichy are terrible, but...". Of course now we cheer when either the SS or the vichy are hung from the rafters in our historical reconstructions, even as the latter protested their supposed differences from the invaders. Mm. Much better.

neonspectraltoast
161
I don't trust Biden as far as I can throw him. I know he really serves the money. Great that you want Trump gone. There may be a whole lot of people just like you. There are people like me, too, who none of you respect and evidently just don't need.

I'm not voting, and I don't feel I matter enough to help determine who wins. Your idea of appealing to people like me is looking down on us and trying to shame us into voting. And for what? Biden? I can't relate to that clown.

A vote is a personal expression. It's about what you want to be personally responsible for. It's not what you say it is; it's what I say it is. And I don't like this society, of which Trump and Biden are both symptoms of the same problem.

You've got no problem with it. Fine. I do. I'm not into what this society is. Biden or Trump, you get the same society. Biden is just a placeholder for the next utter fascist who sparks the interest of the status quo.

In fact, we might be safer with Trump, because at least he's dumb and we all know it. What happens when a charismstic, yet evil, politician comes along? Electing Biden does nothing to change that fate. In fact, he engenders it.

The malfunction is society as a whole. — neonspectraltoast

I'm not trying to shame you into anything. Your overwhelming negativism is the price you are paying for being alive.

Pay it if you must.

prothero
238
↪StreetlightX I'm not sure if your counting me as "one of these people". I merely think Biden has a responsiblity to put forward a coherent message of his vision for the nation and I do not see that he is being successful at that. I am optimistic that a message of hope would prevail over a message of fear and division but I am hearing a message from Trump and from Biden there is barely any message at all getting through. Surely a candidate for president does have an obligation and responsiblity to articulate his vision for the future. — prothero

Take your fingers out of your ears, Prothero.

The message is there...and is being articulated. The reason you are not hearing it is because you are refusing to hear it.

I'm not talking about voting for a pure man versus an impure man. I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of someone with a real issue that will be voted on. That affects them. How do they vote? Street, I don't care about winning points, listen - how do they vote, and why? I mean something central : Again, look at the last ten SCOTUS cases. — csalisbury

Thryv, Inc. v. Click-To-Call Technologies, LP 7-2
Barton v. Barr 5-4
County of Maui, Hawaii v. Hawaii Wildlife Fund 6-3
Romag Fasteners v. Fossil 9-0
Maine Community Health Options v. United States 8-1
Georgia v. Public.Resource.Org Inc. 5-4
New York State Rifle & Pistol Association Inc. v. City of New York, New York 6-3
Kelly v. United States 9-0
United States v. Sineneng-Smith 9-0
Lucky Brand Dungarees v. Marcel Fashion Group 9-0

From here, this term there have been:

13 x 9-0
4 x 8-1
4 x 7-2
4 x 6-3
5 x 5-4

Let me fix that. I've been listening to the live oral arguments recently and probably most of those cases haven't been decided on yet. Among those are a case about native american rights, one about religious freedom to discriminate in hiring, and one on religious freedom to not provide birth control thru employer health insurance. My point is only that the 'court argument' for voting for Biden isn't total bs. The reason for saying that is in part a self-correction because I was ripshit when Biden became the clear nom, and angrily declared never to vote for him. I still won't but I've come to think its more nuanced a question if you've something at stake.

Given it some thought. Neither the sonderkommando nor the katechon are quite the right images. Better are the collaborationist vichy, who, no doubt, argued with perfect rationality that France would be better governed by the French than the Germans, even as they helped the latter send their own citizens to the camps. Flawless arithmetic. "Yes the vichy are terrible, but...". Of course now we cheer when either the SS or the vichy are hung from the rafters in our historical reconstructions, even as the latter protested their supposed differences from the invaders. Mm. Much better. — StreetlightX

If Biden is elected and starts gassing people, my qualified support of the court argument will look silly, I grant that. I will even send you a $100 amazon gift card as penance.

My point is only that the 'court argument' for voting for Biden isn't total bs. The reason for saying that is in part a self-correction because I was ripshit when Biden became the clear nom, and angrily declared never to vote for him. I still won't but I've come to think its more nuanced a question if you've something at stake. — csalisbury

Yes, the Dems fucked over the best candidate (for a second time) and nominated the worst. If they were planning to lose the election by alienating as many supporters as possible, they couldn't have done a better job. And yet not voting Dem is still understandably a very difficult step for many progressives to take. Absolute shit show. Of course, the Dem leadership will just sleepwalk into the election pretending everything's fine like they did with Hillary.

Will Biden be able to contend with the pressure exerted by Stacey Abrams? Will he buckle?

The reason for saying that is in part a self-correction because I was ripshit when Biden became the clear nom, and angrily declared never to vote for him. I still won't but I've come to think its more nuanced a question if you've something at stake. — csalisbury

Anyone who think there is nothing at stake...is probably not old enough; intelligent enough; or sane enough to be voting.

THERE MOST ASSUREDLY IS LOTS AT STAKE.

Yes, the Dems fucked over the best candidate (for a second time) and nominated the worst. If they were planning to lose the election by alienating as many supporters as possible, they couldn't have done a better job. And yet not voting Dem is still understandably a very difficult step for many progressives to take. Absolute shit show. Of course, the Dem leadership will just sleepwalk into the election pretending everything's fine like they did with Hillary. — Baden

The Bernie Sanders people helped elect Trump...

...and are doing their best to see that Trump gets re-elected.

The Trump supporters are mostly ignorant savages.

The Sanders people who are not willing to get on-board with Biden...are even worse. .

jgill
500
Will Biden be able to contend with the pressure exerted by Stacey Abrams? Will he buckle? — jgill

Biden stated unequivocally that the person he will select as his vice-president will be a woman...and will be qualified to step into the job starting from day one of the new administration.

Stacey Abrams is not in any way qualified to do that.

There is no way he will select her. She is not exerting any pressure...she is simply satisfying some need she has.

If Biden is elected and starts gassing people, my qualified support of the court argument will look silly, I grant that. I will even send you a $100 amazon gift card as penance. — csalisbury

Do the concentration camps on your Southern border set up by Obama and by extension, Biden, count? No gassing just yet, of course, but hey, with COVID doing the job of killing the wretched and the brown housed in them, who needs gas?

But look - I'm not denying that there are reasons to vote for Biden. Just as there are reasons to vote for Trump, or third-party candidates, or whatever. I'm just saying, that the smug ease with which those equating not voting for Biden with Trump supporters and somehow responsible for his victory, is, well, shit, and peddled by shit people.

But look - I'm not denying that there are reasons to vote for Biden. Just as there are reasons to vote for Trump, or third-party candidates, or whatever. I'm just saying, that the smug ease with which those equating not voting for Biden with Trump supporters and somehow responsible for his victory, is, well, shit, and peddled by shit people. — StreetlightX

ANYONE who helps Trump get re-elected, which includes almost all of the childishly disappointed Sanders people who are not voting or who will vote third party...are reprehensible for the re-election should it happen.

It is totally appropriate for anyone with a brain to equate "not voting for Biden" with Trump supporters. People "not voting for Biden" are the kind of people who, at least in part, are responsible for his victory in 2016...and will, at least in part, be responsible for Trump's re-election in 2020 should that happen.

The shit you speak of...are the people who would help Trump...not the people warning against doing so.

OK Boomer

I'll go ahead and be "reprehensible." It's the fact that you think it's your right to judge that keeps me on the sidelines. You all think you're the judge, jury, and executioner. But it's your funeral.

:up:

A lot of folks are still - after 2016's swing state turnout debacle - missing the forest for the trees ... :roll:

Anyway, my short list for Biden's VP contains these five prospects (2 Black Women, 2 White Women, 1 Hispanic Woman - 3 midwesterners & 2 southerners), any of which I believe would energize the Biden 2020 campaign and mobilize Democratic, Independent & (some) Republican women to vote this fall in record numbers like 2018.

Rep. Val Demings, D-FL
Gov. Gretchen Witmer, D-MI
Rep. Veronica Escobar, D-TX
Sen. Amy Klobuchar, D-MN
FLOTUS Michelle Obama, D-IL

A lot of folks are still - after 2016's swing state turnout debacle - missing the forest for the trees ... :roll: — 180 Proof

Yes, indeed!

Anyway, my short list for Biden's VP contains these five prospects (2 Black Women, 2 White Women, 1 Hispanic Woman - 3 midwesterners & 2 southerners), any of which I believe would energize the Biden 2020 campaign and mobilize Democratic, Independent & (some) Republican women to vote this fall in record numbers like 2018.

Rep. Val Demings, D-FL
Gov. Gretchen Witmer, D-MI
Rep. Veronica Escobar, D-TX
Sen. Amy Klobuchar, D-MN
FLOTUS Michelle Obama (D-IL) — 180 Proof

Good list...any of whom would be vastly superior to Pence being a Big Mac away from taking the reins.

I know there is lots of blow back to mentioning Condoleezza Rice and Kamela Harris...but they still are high on my list.

I know there is lots of blow back to mentioning Condoleezza Rice ... — Frank Apisa

... or rather Susan Rice. :wink:

:snicker:

Oh, shit. My bad.

I have twisted up those two so often, by now I should be getting it correct.

Thanks, 180.

(Although, even Condoleezza would be okay with me.)

From all your arguments to vote for Biden I personally only find the issues surrounding appointments of judges on the SCOTUS as relevant.

I don't believe there will be a meaningful difference between Biden and Trump in environmental issues.

So what's your reason to vote Biden over Trump and not abstain or vote third party?

180 Proof So what's your reason to vote Biden over Trump and not abstain or vote third party? — Benkei

You've confused me with someone else or not read my posts on voting in 3-4 relevant threads ...

e.g.

Why 'waste my vote' on Biden when he cannot win my resident state (Georgia)? — 180 Proof

I'm registered to vote in a reddish safe state, so most probably I'll vote "third party" like always (except in 2008). — 180 Proof