I think talking to leftists is a complete waste of time...they invariably learn nothing from history. The old leftist ideas died for a reason...people didn't like the results, the ideas didn't die because normal people were brain washed by the right...a favourite leftist fantasy.

In the UK the left dominate areas of government employment , for instance teaching. I read once that teachers used to be the biggest single group within labour party membership. People on the left (like most teachers) have no issue with people like me (in the private sector) paying large amounts of tax to ensure that they (teachers) have a much better pension plan than I could ever afford. — Chester

Teachers in the county that I live in are reasonably well compensated, have good benefits, and have a pension plan. They are also unionized.

So to look at it the other way around, you have no problem with not organizing and getting more for your work.

I'm just pointing out that socialists , for all their demands for fairness in society ,have no problem sponging off of those who earn less than them . Teaching is basically a closed shop unionised protection racket...teachers are virtually unsackable, that's why there are so many shit ones.

The communist form of socialism (government ownership of the means of production, planned economy) has been repeatedly tried and failed.

Utopian socialist communities have been tried and usually failed as well over short periods of time.
Democratic Socialism on the other hand (Scandinavian style) seems successful as long as the government sector of the economy is not allowed to become too large.

Unregulated capitalism (while generating wealth) seems to lead to concentrations of economic (hence political power) tends towards monopoly and creates classes (high inequality) within the society (current US).

Clearly we now have international corporations with budgets larger than countries, concentration of wealth and political power in the hands of a few, a supreme court which claims corporations are individuals, money is speech, and therefore allows unlimited influence by them on the political process.
We can perhaps agree on the problems, any solutions?

Not in the slightest - perhaps the central tenant of anarchist politics is mutual aid and communal organization, and perhaps the central cry of all leftist politics is: 'organize!' — StreetlightX

The problem here is what to do with the people who don't agree. Say I'm a farmer or business owner and you want to organize the community such that my capital is now the community's so I stop exploiting my workers. But I don't want that. So I get together with my other farmer or business friends and arm ourselves.

Now what are you going to do? Organize a larger armed force to overcome mine and take my capital away? Maybe you can convince my workers to strike long enough for me to give in, but what if I don't? Eventually that capital needs to be put to use, particularly if it's something like a farm.

Someone mentioned church. Let's say the community is rather zealous about their faith. But I'm not. Am I now compelled to observe the faith? Or is it just a happy coincidence that anarchists will not be zealots? Because there have certainly been communities in the past who were, and forced their members to comply.

And we can do that for anything a community organizes around. It seems to depend on the community being willing to respect the rights of its members. What if the community is racist or sexist? What if they don't like worshiping Allah or reading libertarian texts?

Chester
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↪fdrake I think talking to leftists is a complete waste of time...they invariably learn nothing from history. The old leftist ideas died for a reason...people didn't like the results, the ideas didn't die because normal people were brain washed by the right...a favourite leftist fantasy. — Chester

Old leftist ideas have died???

When did that happen?

Damn, I stay away from the news for a few hours...and history happened.

There is this small country in the far East called China. It has been a socialist/communist country since 1945. During the last 2 - 3 decades, it has made adjustments by borrowing ideas they see as useful from capitalism...while remaining decidedly socialist.

They are now the second strongest economy on the planet...and probably will move into the number one position during the lifetime of people now considered Senior Citizens.

Socialism has not failed as thoroughly as you are supposing in your opening remarks.

One might suggest it is not longer truly a communist country (since the means of production are no longer entirely owned by the state and the economy is no longer centrally planned). One might also suggest its recent success is largely due to its adoption of components of capitalism.
Depending on how one defines it, I am not sure it is a purely "socialist" country either and class divisions are developing. It is clearly not a democracy but appears to be run by an elite who unlike the current US administration rely to a great degree on technical and scientific expertise.
The Chinese government is worthy of discussion and they have lifted millions out of poverty in the last few decades.

I'm just pointing out that socialists , for all their demands for fairness in society ,have no problem sponging off of those who earn less than them . — Chester

So you don’t believe that teachers are worth paying much, if anything, or at least not worth a pension? Is or was your work worth having the ability to comfortably retire?

Teaching is basically a closed shop unionised protection racket...teachers are virtually unsackable, that's why there are so many shit ones. — Chester

They’re not virtually unfireable. Also, I don’t think that you understand or appropriate the position that public school teachers are in and the kind of protections they may need.

They have indeed...and will probably lift lots more during the decades to come.

I am hoping they China lead the world to understand that an amalgam between the benefits capitalism has to offer and the benefits socialism has to offer...is the best way to go.

I'd loved for America to have been that leader.

There is no chance of that happening.

I am hoping they China lead the world to understand that an amalgam between the benefits capitalism has to offer and the benefits socialism has to offer...is the best way to go. — Frank Apisa

Seems like the worst of both worlds. No thanks. China is authoritarian and highly conformist. If you're a Chinese minority, expect forced reeducation. If you criticize the government, expect jail time and a forced apology.

Northern Europe presents a much better balance.

Northern Europe presents a much better balance. — Marchesk

I would rather live in Finland, Sweden or Norway than China as well. I think it is hard to characterize governments with one or two word labels. I visited the philosophy of politics sites and there are so many different labels for socialism and liberalism that I prefer to talk about specific problems and specific solutions.

Rapacious capitalism combined with authoritarianism and social conservatism. No thanks.

What do you think socialism is defined as?

The problem here is what to do with the people who don't agree. — Marchesk

Really? 'Cause no one asked me, or in fact the majority of the human population, if the current socio-economic arrangement in which vast swathes of humanity are wage slaves for an exploitative capitalist class is OK. That seems to be much more of a problem than your hypotheticals. And if you want to shoot workers for striking or whatever, and you think that the problem with this scenario are workers, then so be it, I've nothing to say to you.

Universal health care isn't even a question! It's the minimal basis of any society: there's no freedom without a sound body, and there's nothing like ill health to keep people from realizing their capacities (i.e. to keep people unfree). And labour unions are - or should be - central to worker organization. As Chibber points out, the kind of collective action that unions can put into effect are one of the few countervailing forces able to properly combat the imbalance of power involved in wage relations. It was the unions who gave us the 5 hour work week, paid leave, and a relatively capped working day. It's no accident that the total demolition of unions has coincided with a massive rise in workplace casualization and the rise of the 'gig-economy'.

The fact that we do not have universal healthcare for everyone in this country...is a more derisive comment about us than anything ANY of our enemies has ever said about us.

The fact that we are the wealthiest country that has ever existed...yet we have people who struggle to barely make ends meet...is a more scathing comment about us than anything ANY of our enemies has ever said about us.

The most frequent way billionaires become billionaires is to cheat and shortchange the people who work for them...and the customers who buy from them.

The current system sucks like a black hole...and must make major adjustments.

I think there are people alive right now who will see many of those adjustments made.

It was the unions who gave us the 5 hour work week — StreetlightX

Wow, that is short!

D'oh! Lol.

If only.

Teachers are over-rated. Most have very little real world knowledge when it comes to the subjects they teach. As an example a friend of mine had to do a business degree to progress where he worked...he was taught a load of leftist bullshit that he'd already discounted with his own work experience...he went through the motions and got his degree though.

Teachers in the UK basically have to fuck the kids to get sacked.

Socialism is the concept that the workers own the economy. It's a bullshit idea that never works. Also when people point to China they conveniently forget that China has prospered by
stealing Western ideas whilst sub-contracting for it. China itself is not a place for building and developing new ideas because the state can just take them from the individuals who build them at any time...that's why socialist states end up falling behind Western states.

Socialism kills individual endeavour.

Countries that leftists like to describe as socialist are not. Sweden, Germany, Denmark etc are not in any way socialist...they just spend more of the capitalist cake on public works.

Socialism is the concept that the workers own the economy — Chester

So like... you see a supermarket like the Co-op or that company Mondragon and immediately put it in the same box as Stalin?

Chester
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↪fdrake Socialism is the concept that the workers own the economy. It's a bullshit idea that never works. Also when people point to China they conveniently forget that China has prospered by
stealing Western ideas whilst sub-contracting for it. China itself is not a place for building and developing new ideas because the state can just take them from the individuals who build them at any time...that's why socialist states end up falling behind Western states.

Socialism kills individual endeavour. — Chester

Bullshit.

Or if you are a religious person...horse shit.

The coop helps fund the Labour party...but the coop itself is a capitalist business.

My mate's son in law worked for them too...awful business, low pay and understaffed.

Lol, well feel free to go and live in your wonderland...I doubt if they'll have you though mate...they don't like gobby opinionated types.:)

As an example a friend of mine had to do a business degree to progress where he worked...he was taught a load of leftist bullshit that he'd already discounted with his own work experience... — Chester

If you’re going to work with leftists you have to learn all 76 genders and not discount them.

Socialism kills individual endeavour. — Chester

You’re talking about the profit motive? Why would it be a bad thing to not have that?

So like... you see a supermarket like the Co-op or that company Mondragon and immediately put it in the same box as Stalin?

One of the great things about starting a business is that you can apply any business model you like and run it how you see fit, even starting a collective. But socialism is an economic system, not a business model.

I guess that Lilly (co-creator of the Matrix series) is a sassy socialist. :razz:

But socialism is an economic system, not a business model. — NOS4A2

Something apparently lost on @Chester, why correct me when it's his mistake?