I think I got confused because of the agreement with Frank Apisa's posts. The above seems to suggest you'd vote for Biden is Georgia had a chance of turning democrat. So what's your reasoning for that? Is it verbatim what Frank said?

The last Democratic candidate for president who won Georgia (with a plurality and not a majority) was a southerner & former Arkansas governor, Bill Clinton, in 1992; so Biden will almost certainly lose this state by double digits (even if he selects Stacey Abrams as a running-mate (which I'm fairly confident he won't)). Georgia remains an electoral safe state. Only in 6-12 midwestern swing states - which are competitive rather than sure wins for either party - the responsible choice is to vote against the POTUS. This election is a referendum on the incumbent's reelection based on the record of his first term which is now culminating in a criminally malignantly negligent, incompetently exacerbated, public health disaster, etc.

Aha. I guess that's where the disconnect is for me from a cultural background. I've never voted against anybody or anything in my life. With, on average, 15 political parties in parliament and coalition governments of at least 2 up to 6 parties, with an average of 4 since WWII, there's always a choice.

And voting third party isn't a waste either. We have a Partij voor de Dieren (Party for Animals) and when they started it was a single issue party. Once they got a seat, all of a sudden every mainstream party had something to say about animal rights. That single issue party evolved (green deals, circular economy etc.) and is still around.

Voting against someone just seems like such a fucking waste...

Voting against someone just seems like such a fucking waste... — Benkei

The American voting system has devolved into voting for the lesser evil, at least for major elections.

There's this Zizek joke about a Slovenian farmer who is given two wishes by a magic fairy. He tells the fairy that his first wish is that his neighbour's cow drops dead. The fairy grants the wish and says, "Ok, what next? You have one more wish". The farmer says, "now I want my cow to drop dead". The fairy says, "well, ok, but why such a weird wish?" The farmer shoots her a contemptuous look and says, "so, if my neighbor comes to me for milk, I don't have to give him any!"

=American politics.

↪180 Proof  Aha. I guess that's where the disconnect is for me from a cultural background. I've never voted against anybody or anything in my life. With, on average, 15 political parties in parliament and coalition governments of at least 2 up to 6 parties, with an average of 4 since WWII, there's always a choice.

[ ... ]

Voting against someone just seems like such a fucking waste... — Benkei

'Lesser-evil voting' (in close, competitive, elections) is the only option when subject to a schlerotic, ossified, colluding duopoly such as the current U.S. two-party system. :shade:

↪Benkei

There's this Zizek joke about a Slovenian farmer who is given two wishes by a magic fairy. He tells the fairy that his first wish is that his neighbour's cow drops dead. The fairy grants the wish and says, ok, what next? You have one more wish. The farmer says, now I want my cow to drop dead. The fairy says, well, ok, but why such a weird wish? The farmer shoots her a contemptuous look and says "So, if my neighbor comes to me for milk, I don't have to give him any!"

=American politics. — Baden

:clap: :sweat: Yeah, I love that joke (a slightly different version); perfectly apt - which I'm sure I've also posted it elsewhere. :up:

Lesser-evil voting' (in close, competitive, elections) is the only option when subject to a schlerotic, ossified, colluding duopology such as the current U.S. two-party system. — 180 Proof

What I love is how it's every fucking election anymore. You have to vote for the lesser evil OR ELSE. Don't dare vote third party.

What that tells me is that the those in favor of the lesser evil have no intention in changing the status quo.

What I love is how it's every fucking election anymore. You have to vote for the lesser evil OR ELSE. Don't dare vote third party. — Marchesk

Hobson's choice. :shade:

What that tells me is that the those in favor of the lesser evil have no intention in changing the status quo.

In the American context, with respect to safe state voters (who deliberately or inadvertantly fail to vote for 3rd party candidates), yeah I agree.

Yeah, the other version is the one I think I first heard but then I forgot it and could only find this one online. Anyway, gotta love the Z. :wink:

:up:

Not voting or third-party voting is simply a denial of the reality of the dilemma of American elections. Here's how it works:
You vote for A and either A gets elected or B gets elected.
You vote for B and either A gets elected or B gets elected.
You vote for C and either A gets elected or B gets elected.
You don't vote and either A gets elected or B gets elected.
Result: either A or B gets elected.

The only ways to change this are in becoming politically active, trying to change the A or B. But in terms of the election itself, you can only help the better cause by voting for it, or help the lesser, worse cause by depriving the better of support.

In a democratic society that faces a significant question, the winning side will be the one that inspires people to put aside their differences and join together, so where a significant clash exists, parties will tend to reduce to two.

Where there are multiple enduring parties, there is no significant question being decided by vote.

Yes, the Dems fucked over the best candidate (for a second time) and nominated the worst. If they were planning to lose the election by alienating as many supporters as possible, they couldn't have done a better job. And yet not voting Dem is still understandably a very difficult step for many progressives to take. Absolute shit show. Of course, the Dem leadership will just sleepwalk into the election pretending everything's fine like they did with Hillary. — Baden

Yes, I'm in agreement here. In my heart of hearts, I am happy with things being forced to their crisis. In my conscience of consciences, I feel like I'm able to feel that in my heart of hearts only because I've never been all that happy or successful in the old status quo, and I feel uncomfortable following my gut-feeling here. I think the the question of whether to vote for 'the lesser of two evils' in this particular election is partially a referendum on whether that way of thinking even makes sense anymore, on its own terms, even if you've always disagreed with it on principle. I do think the answer is that doesn't, and I think I barged into this thread not having seen the types of posts @StreetlightX was responding to, which are frustrating (sorry @Frank Apisa, I can't buy what you're selling). I do still object to the transposition of manichaean-framing-in-outrageous-terms from one level to another. I'm not saying we should suppress anger, I think anger is often good and useful, but there's a kind of trench-warfare bitterness and frothing that hurts everyone involved, to no good purpose.

Our days runnith over with confirmation bias.

Yes, I'm in agreement here. In my heart of hearts, I am happy with things being forced to their crisis. In my conscience of consciences, I feel like I'm able to feel that in my heart of hearts only because I've never been all that happy or successful in the old status quo, and I feel uncomfortable following my gut-feeling here. I think the the question of whether to vote for 'the lesser of two evils' in this particular election is partially a referendum on whether that way of thinking even makes sense anymore, on its own terms, even if you've always disagreed with it on principle. I do think the answer is that doesn't, and I think I barged into this thread not having seen the types of posts StreetlightX was responding to, which are frustrating (sorry @Frank Apisa, I can't buy what you're selling). I do still object to the transposition of manichaean-framing-in-outrageous-terms from one level to another. I'm not saying we should suppress anger, I think anger is often good and useful, but there's a kind of trench-warfare bitterness and frothing that hurts everyone involved, to no good purpose. — csalisbury

No problem, C. We disagree on this issue...and disagree strongly.

Baden is all wet on this...as are all the Sanders supporters who, in states that matter, will not vote or will vote third party.

But that is the nature of our system. And if Trump is re-elected, I guess those people will consider it a victory of some kind. "We showed them!" will be their triumphal hymn.

This next election will NOT be one of choice between two evils. Joe Biden is not evil in any sense of the word...and Donald Trump is a pervasive, unrelenting, frothing evil from the depths of depravity. Trump is a man doing more damage to our Republic and the institutions that allow it to flourish than any of our enemies have ever managed.

Do what you will...and live with the consequences, my friend.

Both paths lead to dystopia of different varieties. Most people can't see that. As for the ones who do, what is the point in choosing one over the other?

Neither side is about being your brother's keeper. Though the Democrats look better on paper. It's just about the prestige of victory. Americans' general narcissistic attitudes won't change.

And they don't want to change. They find the idea of taking care of each other naive and even somehow "unscientific." Biden can't unite the country; he's just another corporate Democrat.

The working class doesn't win. We may live longer, as Trump may tell us coal is food, but we'll live our lives on our own. Celebrities' wares will continue to grow exponentially cheaper, as will corporations', and we'll all be told the elites' lives of luxury are a reflection of ourselves while we live paycheck to paycheck. And I'm supposed to vote for this, because otherwise Trump and everything that entails.

I just think you're all screwy. If you enjoy the kool aid, though, by all means drink up. This country has a much deeper problem than any president, besides Bernie, could have solved.

I'm not looking forward to Trump or being told "crisis averted" when the crisis is staring me in the eye.

:up: Right on! - eff this Biden/tRump false equivalence.

So, Trump is Darth Vadar and Biden is what? A senile Yoda??

Or.. creepy Yoda... ?

Baden
10.2k
↪Frank Apisa ↪180 Proof

So, Trump is Darth Vadar and Biden is what? A senile Yoda?? — Baden

Trump is a danger to our Republic...and has caused our Republic more damage than all of its foreign enemies through the years...mostly because the damage he is causing emanates from the Oval Office. Perhaps you cannot see that, but it is so.

As for Biden...he is a life-long public servant who has done things that I love; things that I like; and some things that I dislike...a lot.

But he is a decent human being...a man of empathy and intelligence.

Yeah, he has lost a step or two from his prime. So have I. But even with that step or two of loss...he will be a MUCH better leader for our nation than Trump.

Those who would rather stay home than vote for him should stay home; those who would rather vote for a third party candidate than vote for him should vote for a third party candidate; those who would vote for Trump's re-election should vote for Trump.

We will all live with the consequences.

We will all live with the consequences. — Frank Apisa

Well, I guess I could live with senile creepy Yoda as long as he is given constant access to a teleprompter and stays away from my sister. Anyhow, Trump is getting worse daily, that's inarguable. And not just him but his whole shitty family.

Baden
10.2k
We will all live with the consequences.
— Frank Apisa

Well, I guess I could live with senile creepy Yoda as long as he is given constant access to a teleprompter and stays away from my sister. Anyhow, Trump is getting worse daily, that's inarguable. And not just him but his whole shitty family. — Baden

Agreed!

I live in a safe Biden state...New Jersey. I've even considered staying home if he chooses Stacey Abrams for the second spot. She is totally unprepared for the job. (I am confident he won't do that!) I have no idea why anyone is touting her. My feelings are that he should choose a woman...preferably a woman of color. There are several women that I think are much closer to being ready to take over immediately. Kamala Harris, Susan Rice, Condoleezza Rice (!)...come immediately to mind.(CR would give the Republicans something to think about.) My preference is for Harris. My guess is Biden will probably be taking the high road with Trump rather than wallowing in the cesspool with him...and Harris looks like she could take over the dirty work with no trouble. She could kick Trump in the balls three times a day and six on Sunday.

:lol: :up:

↪Frank Apisa ↪180 Proof

So, Trump is Darth Vadar and Biden is what? A senile Yoda?? — Baden

Even though I'm an old sk0ol Trekkie ... to my geek mind, I'd say tRump is the "Death Star" and Biden is "R2D2" because that lil rust bucket carries secret plans key to helping the rebellion destroy the "planet-killer". :mask::victory:

Yes, the Dems fucked over the best candidate (for a second time) and nominated the worst — Baden

I have a problem with anthropomorphizing "the Dems". Biden is the nominee because that's where the process led. Was there something unfair about the process that you'd like to have changed, or is it just that you are unhappy with the result of the process?

:up:

You're all fucked.

I actually find it comforting to have it stated that way. So simple, so final.

I'm not looking forward to Trump or being told "crisis averted" when the crisis is staring me in the eye. — neonspectraltoast

This is true.



So, I think in the meantime I agree with it being better to vote for Biden next fall, but...

What then? I'm afraid that for too many Americans "not Trump" is the goal and once they have that everything is back to the corporate stranglehold on politics. What's the game plan in the long run? Aside from the obvious and just moving en masse to the Netherlands.

The man re-tweets CNN, though a majority of us know it's mostly propaganda.

I honestly don't like the man's attitude toward public intelligence.

Either way, I'm not American.

I don't care if their own stupidity causes the country to fallout.

I think Biden will be a problem for them, and I'm happy either way(maybe they'll pull of a Trump victory and keep pushing right).

(Lot's of stupidity going on in America - even the most loyal friends are turning away).