Let me ask you: do you believe that there’s a point (which may vary between men) at which a sexual act is a foregone conclusion? — Possibility
It’s actually a good question. Casual sex for the most part is a mutual fantasy - it’s a dance of cognitive dissonance. He pretends he’s interested in a relationship beyond sex, and I pretend not to notice the pretense. When I stretch and test his performance, though, his true colours will show through under the surface. From this I can decide whether I think the game is worth playing out, whether I buys into the fantasy, or not. — Possibility
Their aim is to gradually eliminate or obscure her options. That’s the transgression. It’s a danger that women are not always prepared for, and that men may not even realise is a problem - until they’re accused of rape. — Possibility
So, for me at least, there’s a difference between not giving a damn about an extended relationship and not giving a damn about your sexual partner as a fellow human being with agency. I enjoy the pretense of a ‘possible’ romantic connection as much as the next girl, but underneath that is the real question: Is he respecting my freedom to choose? — Possibility
What she wants from him is not just sex, but human interaction, so if she starts to feel like she should have more of a choice in how it goes then she’s going to want out. It seems to me that this is where the main issue lies, but she often realises this only when she has poor choices left.
So, for me at least, there’s a difference between not giving a damn about an extended relationship and not giving a damn about your sexual partner as a fellow human being with agency. I enjoy the pretense of a ‘possible’ romantic connection as much as the next girl, but underneath that is the real question: Is he respecting my freedom to choose? — Possibility
My point was that you cannot assume a woman’s intentions purely by the way she’s dressed.
— Possibility
For the most part , I respectfully disagree. If a man looks like a pimp, he just might be a pimp. If he looks like a football player, wrestler, musician, doctor...ad nauseum...you get the idea. A person's attire tells a lot about them. — 3017amen
Perhaps I meet too many angry women (or man hater's not sure) but even in social environments, asking those kinds of questions, to a woman, unfortunately is not received well. People [women] have a hard time with the truth. I mean, we all want transparency, honestly, and all the rest, but many folks can't handle what they ask for...why is that? — 3017amen
but a fat ugly guy won’t get away with the same slick, shallow moves even if I’m desperate, I’m afraid. Most women are looking for a sexual partner - not sex, per say.
— Possibility
I'm just a bit confused there, can you explain that distinction a little better? On the one hand, you seem to be saying looks don't matter, then on the other you seem to care. For example, when you say a fat ugly guy gets different treatment, you are saying that appearances actually do matter, no? — 3017amen
I think a good starting point would be your definition of 'a partner'. Is it not sex and companionship?Now, if all you are talking about is a guy who is considerate, kind, caring, intelligent, mature, that's all common sense stuff. We're adults here.
I know many women who've told me if the sex ain't good, they walk! Similarly, I can't imagine them even considering a sex partner who is unappealing. My point is, how do we escape objectification in a world of objectivity? — 3017amen
person’s attire suggests a lot about them, but to make assumptions purely by the way they’re dressed can be rude, insulting and dangerous. Just because someone’s wearing scrubs and a white coat, doesn’t make them qualified to operate on you, does it? — Possibility
This is a common excuse, but I’m not buying it. Have a little courage - I’m suggesting you ask a question, not offer a judgement or a ‘truth’. — Possibility
I never said I didn’t care about looks - they’re not a dealbreaker, for me. Appearances matter more if I’m only looking for an ego boost, though. And if I’m willing to play the casual sex game with someone who clearly is just after a conquest, then I’m going to be choosy about it. — Possibility
‘Partner’ indicates a human interaction between freely choosing adults. See my response to fdrake above for more on this. — Possibility
Not at all defending Schopenhauer's behavior, but this story always makes me chuckle just because of how ridiculous and petty it is. — darthbarracuda
So let's face it, you get men and women all together in one big building, and sooner or later somebody's going to start fucking.
Is that objectification I wonder? — 3017amen
Possibilty!
With all due respect, this almost seems like a head game. I don't think that's your intention, and maybe I read it wrong. Firstly, I don't know where you are getting your stats, but many women just want sex. Depending on the particular season of one's life ( in college) for example, those existential needs rear their heads. Similarly, when I worked in a night club in a tourist town years back (not in a band like I am now), women would come in and felt free to be promiscuous because they were not recognized locally. — 3017amen
Secondly, of course the old-school obvious definition of objectification is a no-brainer. I mean, it's an abhorrent, detestable example of what human nature is capable of.. . Okay then, so now what? Please tell me how objectification of men and women is a bad thing, when doing your dance? — 3017amen
Really? By all Objective appearances, absolutely. If a Doctor dresses the part, would you reasonably assume he was a doctor and thereby allow him to operate on you? Or, on the hand, while you are laying there semi-conscious, would you ask for his resume? — 3017amen
Well, I don’t agree that sex as an act is an existential need. It’s a biological urge, sure. But I’d be pretty confident that those women being ‘promiscuous’ do not ‘just want sex’ as an act. I’d say they’re exercising a freedom of choice they probably don’t feel they have at home: to casually explore sexual encounters and partners so they can discover what is valuable to them. These aren’t stats, by the way - they’re opinions from many years experiencing the world as a woman and in the confidence of many — Possibility
Objectifying men or women in the casual sex ‘dance’ contributes to an erosion of agency. If you perceive a woman only as an object of your sexual desire, then you’re likely to perceive her agency - her capacity to reject you or to desire someone else - as an unacceptable threat. Likewise with men. It’s what men and women are capable of when threatened by an ‘object’ that can be a ‘bad thing’. — Possibility
And if a scantily clad woman walked up to you and whispered “Let’s have sex”, you wouldn’t stop her to ask her why she was dressed that way. If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and walks like a duck... — Possibility
I'm arguing one cannot escape pure objectification in a world of physical appearances. — 3017amen
That's not what I'm saying, read my earlier post to you... . You seem all twisted up over the ethical implications.... .
I'm arguing one cannot escape pure objectification in a world of physical appearances. — 3017amen
1.Feeling attractive and sexy feels good, and it feels good for the same reason that feeling unattractive and unsexy feels so bad: our self-worth is wrapped up in it. — 3017amen
The ideal object is that which is being perceived. How important is the object being perceived? — 3017amen
For me, the ethical implications of objectification are the only implications of significance. The subject/object thing does nothing for me. — Ciceronianus the White
The metaphysical baggage you're bringing to the discussion is obfuscating the issue. — fdrake
Entirely irrelevant to objectification as a mode of human conduct; even non-objectifying ethical conduct could be objectifying in terms of your subject-object stuff; which is really a sign that you're talking about something much different. — fdrake
In social philosophy, objectification is the act of treating a person, or sometimes an animal, as an object or a thing. It is part of dehumanization, the act of disavowing the humanity of others.
— Wikipedia — TheMadFool
Not to say Wikipedia is the last word on anything, but as this definition commenced the thread and was plainly intended to apply to the thread, I think it's what should be taken to be the "objectification" at issue. — Ciceronianus the White
Not to say Wikipedia is the last word on anything, but as this definition commenced the thread and was plainly intended to apply to the thread, I think it's what should be taken to be the "objectification" at issue.
It's unclear to me that the colors, cars, houses, etc. you refer to are being or can be dehumanized. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that only humans can be dehumanized, and that only the humanity of humans may be disallowed.
I suspect, then, that you're referring--for reasons unknown to me--to something other than the dehumanization of women, or their treatment as an object or thing. I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to; perhaps you think that everything we experience are, necessarily, objects to us in some sense or we perceive them as such. I'm with Dewey in most things, and so tend to think of experience as an interaction with our environment, often non-cognitive, so wouldn't necessarily agree with such a view. But whatever you may be referring to, I don't think it pertains to this thread. — Ciceronianus the White
I don't think it pertains to this thread. — Ciceronianus the White
Well we're in agreement then. But I suspect you have a higher bar for what you consider to be a "genuine connection". — jamalrob
Well you should buy it. Or at least be true to yourself here. The fact is, you probably get perturbed when someone doesn't like what you are wearing. Or, as you say, when someone questions your attire. — 3017amen
For many reasons, this makes you feel less than a woman, because your self-esteem is partially attached to your appearance (simple psychology here):
1. Feeling attractive and sexy feels good, and it feels good for the same reason that feeling unattractive and unsexy feels so bad: our self-worth is wrapped up in it. True or false? — 3017amen
Yes, and I would submit you are lying to yourself. You seem to be making political statements based on an unrealistic ideology. Because sex is such a personal topic, people will typically tell you what they want you to hear. They are most likely feeding into your narrative. Have you studied the history of Sex? Are you aware of ancient concubines? Asian penis (and vagina) worship? What about porn, why are so many porn stars seemingly available on the internet? Just type-in men's dicks or women's pussies... . My point is that those women DO want sex, and they don't want it with just anybody, or wait, do they? — 3017amen
Sure, and this 'agency' is what a handsome well kept man, who brings a lot to the table, has to offer you. Otherwise, you would marry an ugly-fat-bald guy who smells bad just because he's kind considerate, caring and has money. The fact remains, you want it all. And you should want it all. A handsome, intelligent, responsible and successful man around your arms in a social gathering, as well as someone to father your children and snuggle at night. It follows that you would not settle for casual sex with the former, or would you? — 3017amen
As far as a threat, a threat to what? I'm not following that? If I am an attractive, successful man, why should I feel threatened? Objectively, I care for my body, and respect those women who care for theirs. — 3017amen
And if a scantily clad woman walked up to you and whispered “Let’s have sex”, you wouldn’t stop her to ask her why she was dressed that way. If it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck and walks like a duck...
— Possibility
Correct. And that's my point. You make judgements based on objectification. — 3017amen
Yes, I get perturbed when someone feels the need to tell me that they don’t like what I’m wearing, as if assuming that I dress with their needs and preferences in mind. My self esteem is partially attached to my appearance, yes - but I am also more than what or how I appear, and I will recognise and react to being treated as if my choices are not my own. — Possibility
Women, for the most part, do NOT just want a sexual act with any body, detached from a human being. They will often choose to feed into the male narrative, but they ALWAYS do it for their own reasons, not yours. — Possibility
think you might be confusing casual sex with finding a life partner. They are two completely different strategies for women, and they’re looking for very different qualities. Just because it all looks the same from your end, does not mean it is. — Possibility
exactly that kind of thinking that is the problem. An attractive, successful man believes that he should NOT feel threatened by a woman because he assumes she has no reason to say ‘no’, and a fat, poor man assumes that a woman is saying ‘no’ because he is fat or poor - but has anyone asked the woman what HER reasoning is? You’re reducing a complex and diverse decision-making process into an over-simplified value system that is grossly inaccurate for predicting how a woman chooses.
And how exactly do you ‘respect’ a woman who cares for her body? By appreciating the body in motion, or appreciating the choices she makes with it? — Possibility
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