The reality is complex, but your answers are simple and arbitrary. — ssu
:100:
Not a football game, but worthy of cheerful support nonetheless! — creativesoul
When there isn't any real transparency, when things depends quite on the specific information you have or if you believe what companies say or not, it is quite arbitrary as does the "Fairphone" provider example tell. I believe their quite honest when the say they don't know anything about the 60% of the materials they use. That was my point.How is 40% ethical sources arbitrary? — Isaac
You opting NOT to buy certain things starting from let's say leopard skins and rhino horns is a peaceful, effective way to influence things. A great way to influence people. That wasn't the issue, it was about getting media attention by breaking the law.Tell how choosing a political representative is a way of bringing about positive change but choosing a phone is complex and arbitrary? — Isaac
Did I say that? No. Do you think that improving artisanal and small scale mining is similar to supporting exploitative labour?? Yeah, let's ban ASM and have Chinese companies using minimal chinese labour and robots do the mining.Why would you think that continuing to support exploitative labour practices is the only way to help the poorest people in the world? — Isaac
When there isn't any real transparency, when things depends quite on the specific information you have or if you believe what companies say or not, it is quite arbitrary as does the "Fairphone" provider example tell. I believe their quite honest when the say they don't know anything about the 60% of the materials they use. That was my point. — ssu
The issue was if it's OK to burn people's homes who have the wrong cell phone. Or it's OK to burn workplaces of people that the franchising company behind them (which the entrepreneur and workers have no control over) has been accused (twenty years ago) of using a subcontractor that uses child labor. With the latter you were totally fine with and think the workers are complicit and deserve it, whereas the cell phone owner isn't. — ssu
I'm not so sure how complicit the low paid worker in a fast food restaurant trying to make a living is in this case. I think the worker didn't make a political statement by choosing the workplace. — ssu
Doesn't look smart, doesn't help. But you get a kick out of it, I guess. — ssu
This is where I really disagree.I gather that, but you're not the one considering destroying his place of work, so that's OK. I am sure how complicit they are, so I don't object to the place of work being destroyed. I wouldn't advocate it (partly for the reason you later give), but I'm not opposed to it either. — Isaac
Yeah. you didn't get my point.You cite the 'complexity of the world' in questioning how we should handle the issue of child labour in the DRC.
"Maybe we should boycott, maybe that won't work, maybe a political solution, maybe a legal one, who knows, it's all so complex... "
Meanwhile children as young as six are dying down mines. — Isaac
Because going to some other one's country and telling them as a woke foreigner what they should do isn't the best way around. Oh yes: STOP BEING POOR!!! Arrogant righteous hubris.Where's the unaccepability of the Congolese children's plight? Why aren't we immediately putting a stop to that. — Isaac
I'm so evil.You're prepared to stamp out law-breaking protests — Isaac
What on Earth are you blabbering about?Why aren't you extending the same principle to the Congolese children. — Isaac
Improvements happen from inside and from within the society. Those are the things we can hopefully assist.Yes, carrying on as things are might well be better for their country in the long run (the world is complex after all) but surely it's obvious to anyone with a shred of compassion that the risk is too great. — Isaac
This is where I really disagree. — ssu
Yeah. you didn't get my point. — ssu
Because going to some other one's country and telling them as a woke foreigner what they should do isn't the best way around. Oh yes: STOP BEING POOR!!! Arrogant righteous hubris. — ssu
What on Earth are you blabbering about? — ssu
while capitalism overlaps with racist issues, it's coincidental. — creativesoul
Topic is systemic racism... while capitalism overlaps with racist issues, it's coincidental. — creativesoul
I'd like to see how the legalization of outsourcing from places with illegal(in the States) labor practices ties into the systemic racism in the US government. — creativesoul
Yet there's a huge difference if that encouragement is optional or if it is implemented by force. If it's optional for the country itself to choose what it wants, then we are on the right track.We're always going to someone else's country and encouraging some way of doing things. — Isaac
Let me try it this way. Here's two possible solutions to the problem of Congolese slaves.
1. Carry on buying phones as usual so that they eventually get richer and make their own laws banning the practice. Theory - industry leads to development and development leads to better living conditions. Disadvantage if theory is wrong - lots of children suffer and die.
2. Set fire to an Apple Store. Theory - the protest shows how angry people are about Apple's supply chain choices, and media spotlight embarrasses people into changing phones, Apple eventually backs better working conditions. Disadvantage if theory is wrong - an entrepreneur loses their businesses and some workers have to find another job or go on benefits. — Isaac
I don't mean to pick you out, but this has getting my goat for some time. This is supposed to be a discussion forum, it's not a fucking football match. What exactly is this cheer-leading supposed to achieve? — Isaac
The current economic system over the world is capitalism; so studying how capitalist economies deploy or manifest racism is necessary intellectual labour here. — fdrake
Yet there's a huge difference if that encouragement is optional or if it is implemented by force. If it's optional for the country itself to choose what it wants, then we are on the right track. — ssu
it is honestly and genuinely A JOB FOR CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES to get their shit together. It's simply limited what foreigners really can do. — ssu
First of all, neither is really a solution. — ssu
Second, how setting fire to an Apple Store magically saves children in Congo? — ssu
I could have simply said "I totally agree"; what would your response have been then? — Janus
Destroying property and resources achieves nothing; it really just amounts to the mindless destruction of property and resources. Nothing will happen without the enlightenment of the masses, and a collective will to coordinated action against the financial elites. — Janus
Destroying property and resources achieves nothing; it really just amounts to the mindless destruction of property and resources. — Janus
From now on, every time a hawk proposes to go to war somewhere we should insist they should peacefully protest against that other country instead of resorting to violence. — Benkei
Happened a bit quicker than the charges against the other police officers in the George Floyd case.Mr. Brook's killer charged with felony murder and 11 other charges 5 days after the incident which is unprecidentedly swift for a local DA anywhere in the US. — 180 Proof
Embargoes are a show of force, mind you.Who's said anything about force? I never even mentioned it. — Isaac
"Arbitrary things" like the ATLANTIC OCEAN separates me from Americans so yeah, there indeed are issues that limit what I can do. :snicker:Why? I get that in conservative ideology the arbitrary geographic lines we draw around groups of people become really hyper-important for some reason, but why would it be limited what foreigners can do (in theory). — Isaac
Umm...I really don't understand what you are saying at all, sorry. So if you burn Apple shops, children survive, but if you don't... nevermind.I explained the theory. It's right next to the bold word 'Theory'. I thought that might be a clue. If you disagree with the theory, — Isaac
I get that in conservative ideology — Isaac
And this is the dog whistle you hear if I talk. Rather irrelevant to say that I'm simply against violence WHEN non-violent methods do work and do work even better. I'm no pacifist, but I do think a democracy can work well enough for us if we make a concerted effort in upholding it.Why is it that when conservatives are faced with policies — Isaac
If alt-rioters shut down an event you that happened to be attending and support, I'm guessing you would object to their use of force against you and yours, right? — VagabondSpectre
Yes. That's the point of having a feeling about how our society should be. I would object to the alt-right using any means at all to shut down an event I approved of because I'd believe them to be wrong. You can't remove the judgement of what's right and what's wrong from this. The debating arena itself is constructed and maintained by people. People who all have a view of what's right and what's wrong. It infuses every action they take. Denying a platform, allowing a platform, ignoring a platform...everything is infused with our moral sensibilities, we cannot 'step outside of them' to create a fair debating space. — Isaac
We have laws protecting individual rights (such as property rights) because if we allow ourselves to act fast and loosely according to our felt connections, we're not guaranteed to behave any better than an angry mob, and we just wind up creating more problems for ourselves and everyone else. — VagabondSpectre
Look to your history books. If you can detail me a single instance of a law protecting property coming about after a community-wide discussion about the anarchistic ramifications if we don't, I'd be fascinated to see it. All I've found so far is laws put in place by wealthy landowners in order to apply the force of the army to back up their claim to land. — Isaac
Other people believe it will achieve something, so they continue to destroy property and resources in the hope that it achieves their goals. If you want to change their belief you need to present some chain of reasoning which demonstrates how destroying property achieves nothing. It needs to be either pretty much irrefutable or it needs to come along with an alternative which will certainly change something, otherwise it's not going to have any persuasive power. — Isaac
I find it rather amusing how off limits violence all of a sudden is in the face of actual injustice and how happy they always are to bomb the shit out of other countries for "regime change" or based on trumped up lies. — Benkei
Destroying property and resources achieves nothing; it really just amounts to the mindless destruction of property and resources. Nothing will happen without the enlightenment of the masses, and a collective will to coordinated action against the financial elites. But this seems almost impossible given that the masses mostly have no desire to be educated, and people's capacity to genuinely care about others usually extends only to a relative small number of family and friends. — Janus
What stops you from reading all the collective knowledge gained through the protests as education? — fdrake
That's a legitimate point of view, but many authors disagree, so whilst it might be a valid point to argue for within the thread, it's not anywhere near agreed upon enough to render talk of the effects of capitalism off-topic. They absolutely unequivocally affect minority ethnic groups disproportionately compared to white Europeans. You could make an argument that this is nothing but coincidence, but as a state of affairs to be answered for, its pretty much the textbook definition of systemic racism. — Isaac
There would seem to be little or no reason to believe that looting and burning will achieve anything positive. So the onus would be on those who think it is a good strategy to show that it will, or that we have plausible reasons to believe it will, have positive results. — Janus
I don't believe it is done for strategic reasons, in any case; it seems far more likely to me that it is simply a mindless expression of mob anger. — Janus
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