• Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    There are two important sub-questions here: what use is philosophy to any given individual, and what use is philosophy to society as a whole.

    To the first sub-question I answer, given my characterization in an earlier thread of the faculties needed to do philosophy, that doing philosophy is literally practice at being a person, exercising the very faculty that differentiates persons from non-persons. Doing philosophy literally helps develop you into a better person, increasing your self-awareness and self-control, improving your mind and your will, and helping you to find meaning in the world, both in the sense of descriptive understanding, and in the sense of prescriptive purpose.

    It is much like martial arts for the mind: as the practice of martial arts both develops the body from the inside and prepares one to protect their body from attacks from the outside, both from crude brutes but also from more sophisticated attackers who would twist the methods of martial arts toward offense rather than defense, so too philosophy develops the mind and will from the inside, and also prepares one to protect their mind and will from attacks from the outside, both from crude ignorance and inconsideration but also from more sophisticated attackers who would twist the methods of philosophy against its purpose, into what might better be termed "phobosophy". In a perfect world, the latter uses of either martial arts or philosophy would be unnecessary, as such attacks would not be made to begin with, but in the actual world it is unfortunately useful to be thus prepared; and even in a perfect world, with no external attackers, martial arts and philosophy are both still useful for their internal development and exercise of the body, mind, and will.

    fields.png

    To the second sub-question, I answer that philosophy is the lynchpin of the entire chain of activities conducted by society, and so is instrumentally useful, in some distant way at least, toward any practical end whatsoever.

    Every practical activity involves using some tool to do some job. That work may be the original job of keeping our bodies alive using the original tool of our bodies themselves, i.e. medicine and agriculture. It may be the jobs of making new tools to help with that, i.e. construction and manufacturing. Or multiplying and distributing our power to do that, i.e. energy and transportation industries. Or multiplying and distributing our control over that power, i.e. information and communication industries.

    At the lowest level of abstraction away from the actual use of whatever tools to do whatever jobs, technological fields exist to maintain and administrate those tools, and business fields exist to maintain and administrate those jobs. A level of abstraction higher, engineers work to create the tools that those technologists administrate, while entrepreneurs work to create the jobs that those businesspeople administrate. Those engineers in turn heavily employ the findings of the physical sciences, which could be said to be finding the "natural tools" available from which engineers can create new tools tailored to specific needs. And though this step in the chain seems overlooked in society today, the ethical sciences that I envision could be said to find the "natural jobs" that need doing, inasmuch as they identify needs that people have, which we might also frame as market demands, toward the fulfillment of which entrepreneurs can tailor the creation of new jobs. And those physical and ethical sciences each rely on philosophical underpinnings to function, thereby making philosophy, at least distantly, instrumental to any and all practical undertakings across society.

    I hold that the relationship of philosophy to the sciences is the same as that between administrative fields (technology and business) and the workers whose tools and jobs they administrate. Done poorly, they constantly stick their nose into matters they don't understand, and tell the workers, who know what they are doing and are trying to get work done, that they're doing it wrong and should do it some other, actually inferior, way instead, because the administration supposedly knows better and had better be listened to. But done well, they instead give those workers direction and help them organize the best way to tackle the problems at hand, then they get out of the way and let the workers get to doing work. Meanwhile, a well-conducted administration also shields the workers from those who would detract from or interfere with their work (including other, inferior administrators); and at the same time, they are still watchful and ready to be constructively critical if the workers start failing to do their jobs well. In order for administration to be done well and not poorly, it needs to be sufficiently familiar with the work being done under its supervision, but at the same time humble enough to know its place and acknowledge that the specialists under it may, and properly should, know more than it within their areas of specialty.

    I hold that this same relationship holds not only between administrators and workers, but between creators (engineers and entrepreneurs) and administrators, between scientists (physical or ethical) and creators, and most to the point here, between philosophers and scientists. Philosophy done well guides and facilitates sciences, protects them from the interference of philosophy done poorly, and then gets out of the way to let the sciences take over from there. The sciences are then to do the same for creators, they to do the same for administrators, they to do the same for all the workers of the world getting all the practical work done.
  • Outlander
    2.1k
    Great thread. The entirety of it kind of got the best of me around the last paragraph or so but a point I'd want to make, as novel as it may be is, as you said, we use tools to survive, you even included one's body as such. Sans religion, with no philosophy there is little to distinguish us from a highly advanced shovel, spatula, calculator, or day planner now is there? Some would say you answered your own question.
  • Banno
    25.1k
    Great thread.Outlander

    Not so much. Philosophy is no at all useful, but it is inevitable. It's not useful because as soon as it becomes of use it ceases to be philosophy. It is inevitable because there will always be more to make explicit.
  • Outlander
    2.1k
    It's not useful because as soon as it becomes of use it ceases to be philosophy.Banno

    Theories are not useful because if correct they become scientific law?
  • Banno
    25.1k
    No.

    @Pfhorrest's diagram has philosophy at the centre, which is exactly wrong. Philosophy is the stuff around the edges, where what is to be said is unclear because we haven't worked out how to say it. Philosophy consists in working out how to say things in a way that is coherent; in working out the knots and limits of our language.
  • Outlander
    2.1k


    Do you believe in evolution or creation?
  • Outlander
    2.1k


    I was going to try and use whatever reply yes or no to go on about something. Not toward you in any way of course rather for the particular view for others who would read it

    Anyhow if you were to have said yes Id've mentioned about how cavemen were and how we progressed to, again this day and age. Philosophy is on the edges because higher learning, thought, and reasoning is produced by it and so then becomes common sense, practice, and in some cases scientific law.
  • Banno
    25.1k
    Creationism is for cretins.

    But both the systematising in which @Pfhorrest engages, and the notion of inevitable progress that you might be espousing, strike me as post-hoc myths.
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    Your description of what the job of philosophy is sounds more or less accurate to me, and my placement of philosophy at the center of that diagram isn‘t meant to be counter to that. It’s just that philosophy is at the edge of each of those other fields, so when you go beyond that field out into the weeds you end up in philosophy... and from there can wander back out of the weeds into the more developed parts of another field.

    That diagram started with only three hexagons surrounding logic, which has a foot in each of languag, mathematics, and philosophy. I realized rhetoric has a foot in each of language, the arts, and philosophy. I used to have a different chart showing the relationship described in the OP between ontology & epistemology / physical sciences / engineering / technology / work on the one hand and my analogous ethics / “ethical sciences” / entrepreneurship / business / work on the other hand. This diagram here is the result of adapting the two of those to fit together and filling in some details.
  • Banno
    25.1k
    Any such systematisation will inevitably cede completeness in order to maintain coherence.

    The best feature of your diagram is that economics is diagonally opposed to logic.
  • Outlander
    2.1k


    Hm.

    It seems just as likely as any alternate I suppose. Early peoples banded together for survival, and once things became tolerable ie. food to eat, water to drink, shelter, etc. people had more time to think about the non biologically essential.

    Of course, a few barbarians and their barbaric tools are a far cry from the complexity of modern circuitry, atomic fusion, even the combustion engine. I wouldn't count philosophy out quite yet.
  • jgill
    3.9k
    Pfhorrest's diagram has philosophy at the centre, which is exactly wrong.Banno

    :up: Amen to that!

    Philosophy is on the edges because higher learning, thought, and reasoning is produced by it . . .Outlander

    I seriously doubt that. Did Richard Feynman take a philosophy course to learn critical thinking skills?
  • Outlander
    2.1k


    Not sure. From your statement I'd assume not. The man was probably a bloody genius with an IQ that could buy a house converted to thousands. And?

    Without the concept of thinking beyond the apparent necessity as I believe philosophy is, well, if the man or someone before him couldn't drop a sabertooth tiger with a single shot or wallop from a club maybe we wouldn't have been graced with his works today if it weren't for early forms of philosophy.
  • Banno
    25.1k
    :cool:

    Another approach would be to pull philosophy out and put logic at the centre; the flower then has order, structure or pattern at the centre with philosophy, sense-making, as the perimeter.
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    I think you are all misunderstanding the importance of being in the center of the diagram. Nothing’s position signifies importance or unimportance, only its relatedness to other fields.

    If you take philosophy’s relation to the sciences and trades below it to signify “importance”, then math, the arts, logic, rhetoric, and most of all language are even more “important”, being above it, and the more abstract things upon which philosophy depends to do its jobs of facilitating the more practical things below it.

    Banno, you’ll note that I already said above, the oldest version did start with logic at the center, of language, math, and philosophy, before expanding to feature logic and rhetoric as dual centers, and incorporate the arts opposite math. Philosophy was at the bottom of that chart. It was also at the bottom of another chart, with the sciences and trades, which I turned upside-down to glue to the top chart, making this one. That’s the only reason philosophy is at the center.
  • jgill
    3.9k
    Philosophy done well guides and facilitates sciences, protects them from the interference of philosophy done poorly, and then gets out of the way to let the sciences take over from there.Pfhorrest

    True enough, if what you mean by "philosophy" is simply critical thinking exhibited by those very familiar with the science and with administrative skills - and not "philosophers" implying some sort of professional status in that discipline. That said, I think you are casting too big a net, calling anyone who contemplates anything a philosopher. At which point the label is meaningless.

    When I reflect on my intellectual journey it was specific disciplines that sharpened my abilities to reason, not philosophy in the academic sense. My one senior-level course in that subject did little if anything in that regard.
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    That said, I think you are casting too big a net, calling anyone who contemplates anything a philosopher. At which point the label is meaningless.jgill

    I said in an earlier thread what it is I take philosophy to be, which underlies why I think it has this relationship to the science:

    The word "philosophy" derives from Greek words meaning "love of wisdom", in a sense of "love" that in Greek meant attracted to or drawn toward it. I take it then that characteristic activity of philosophy is the pursuit of wisdom, not the possession or exercise thereof. Wisdom, in turn, is not merely some set of correct opinions, but rather the ability to discern the true from the false, the good from the bad; or at least the more true from the less true, the better from the worse; the ability, in short, to discern superior answers from inferior answers to any given question.Pfhorrest

    To that end, philosophy must investigate questions about what our questions even mean, investigating questions about language; what criteria we use to judge the merits of a proposed answer, investigating questions about being and purpose, the objects of reality and morality respectively; what methods we use to apply those criteria, investigating questions about knowledge and justice; what faculties we need to enact those methods, investigating questions about the mind and the will; who is to exercise those faculties, investigating questions about academics and politics; and why any of it matters at all.

    Philosophy is about figuring out how to do sciences. It uses the tools of mathematics and the arts, logic and rhetoric, to do the job of creating the tools of the physical and ethical sciences. It is the bridge between the more abstract disciplines and the more practical ones: an inquiry stops being science and starts being philosophy when instead of using some methods that appeal to specific contingent experiences, it begins questioning and justifying the use of such methods in a more abstract way; and that activity in turn ceases to be philosophy and becomes art or math instead when that abstraction ceases to be concerned with figuring out how to practically answer questions about what is real or what is moral, but turns instead to the structure or presentation of the ideas themselves.
  • jgill
    3.9k
    Philosophy is about figuring out how to do sciences. It uses the tools of mathematics and the arts, logic and rhetoric, to do the job of creating the tools of the physical and ethical sciencesPfhorrest

    I think it is unnecessary to even use the word "philosophy" in this regard. It appears you are trying to find a niche, a recognition for something that pervades creative efforts and can be more commonly thought of as combinations of imagination and technical knowledge. You seem to want philosophy on some sort of pedestal rather than admitting it is so ubiquitous, so ethereal that it touches everything but adheres to nothing . . . one needn't even use the term, particularly in scientific research.

    I admit, however, that philosophy of mathematics (a truly dreadful discipline IMO) displays the characteristics of both subjects as realized in academic departments.
  • Enrique
    842


    Putting philosophy at the center is interesting. If you plucked it out, the entire cultural framework still has lots of structural symmetry, a kind of emergent viability, but is it going to merely maintain against external pressure, become flimsy and weak as it expands, or even implode? Philosophy reinforces against the unruly, amorphous nature of spontaneous human innovation, mass motivation and inclement situations as theoretical diversification progresses so the edifice of knowledge has a nondissonant intellectual soul of optimally integrated generalization. Philosophy can be a consolidation mechanism for the episteme. lol

    But in all seriousness, without philosophical kinds of thinking we can't have belief systems that broadly and systematically justify respect for psychological and physical need, so institutional structure becomes antagonistic rather than reinforcing to human welfare. What would we be if our species had completely lacked all interest in constructing an ideal, true image of our own existence?

    You oughta find a place for history, maybe could give the diagram an additional dimension.
  • Banno
    25.1k
    Banno, you’ll note that I already said above, the oldest version did start with logic at the center, of language, math, and philosophy, before expanding to feature logic and rhetoric as dual centers, and incorporate the arts opposite math. Philosophy was at the bottom of that chart. It was also at the bottom of another chart, with the sciences and trades, which I turned upside-down to glue to the top chart, making this one. That’s the only reason philosophy is at the center.Pfhorrest

    My objection - which is too strong a word - goes beyond the structure of your diagram to the attempt to produce such a model in the first place. My objection is to the attempted systematising philosophy by embedding it at all in such a diagram. Philosophy is not a subject, but an activity. It consists in critique and analysis, in conversation, not systematisation. It is not the building up of a body of knowledge - as you would do in your own work - but the tearing down of nonsense.
  • Banno
    25.1k


    Wisdom is the silence after the argument.
  • Outlander
    2.1k


    Where does a forest fit into the trees?
  • creativesoul
    12k
    Another approach would be to pull philosophy out and put logic at the centre; the flower then has order, structure or pattern at the centre with philosophy, sense-making, as the perimeter.Banno

    And yet another would be to put thought and belief at the center...

    :wink:
  • Banno
    25.1k
    It's all thoght and belief.
  • creativesoul
    12k
    It's all thoght and belief.Banno

    :smile:

    Not really my friend... there must be something to think about.

    :wink:
  • Pfhorrest
    4.6k
    You oughta find a place for history, maybe could give the diagram an additional dimension.Enrique

    I have wondered how to incorporate history in there, but since there is a history of everything on the chart, it seems like a literal other dimension would be needed: the z axis representing the course of history of each field.

    Philosophy is not a subject, but an activity. It consists in critique and analysis, in conversation, not systematisation.Banno

    Those aren’t opposites. You can systematically critique and analyze. The distinction I think you want to make is, as I already said earlier,
    Wisdom, in turn, is not merely some set of correct opinions, but rather the ability to discern the true from the false, the good from the bad...Pfhorrest

    It is not the building up of a body of knowledge - as you would do in your own work - but the tearing down of nonsense.Banno

    Most of my work (assuming you mean my book) consists of systematically listing off various kinds of nonsense and elaborating on why they are nonsense, and what is left over after the nonsense is gone.

    Where does wisdom fit into this picture?ZzzoneiroCosm

    Wisdom is what philosophy tries to make, and the sciences try to apply. It is
    the ability to discern the true from the false, the good from the bad; or at least the more true from the less true, the better from the worse; the ability, in short, to discern superior answers from inferior answers to any given question.Pfhorrest
  • Banno
    25.1k
    Most of my work (assuming you mean my book) consists of systematically listing off various kinds of nonsense and elaborating on why they are nonsense, and what is left over after the nonsense is gone.Pfhorrest

    Sure. That's why I added a qualification to the word objection.
  • James Skywalker
    12
    The use of philosophy is poetry. Types of patterns that go with that 10 letter word. 4 syllables making the metre. Rhyme of an f, a ‘i’, a ‘l’, a low o, a ‘s’, a strong “o”, and a fee as in “free”. The grammatical structure of how the it might connect with another word depending on the spelling and it looking similar. Or it’s meaning: not just the meaning of the word philosophy but each syllables meaning also; an example is, “Someone’s thought about philosophy”.

    The use of philosophy is infinite.
  • Changeling
    1.4k
    That's why I added a qualification to the word objection.Banno

    You didn't qualify it, you added more information
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