Maybe I'm not being fair to his analysis, I haven't gone into it. I was just recently exposed to his rants and they've been floating around my head. — Welkin Rogue

During my downtime I'm going to analyze that video and come back here to it.

Most people — Isaac

Hmmm who are these "most people?"

There's always someone poorer than you, but there's always someone less poor who should be doing more. — Isaac

I get what you're saying here, but what does that have to do with the crux of BLM's message of systemic racism and the lack of transparency when it comes to police misconduct?

now I don't like BLM for many reasons — Judaka

What are those reasons?

BLM are far from the ideal group from my perspective. — Judaka

Of course you feel this way.

BLM is responsible for some pretty terrible things — Judaka

Such as? What terrible things are they responsible for because as far as my knowledge goes the Southern Poverty Law Center has deemed BLM as a non-hate group:

"In recent weeks, we’ve received a number of requests to name Black Lives Matter a hate group, particularly in the wake of the murders of eight police officers in Dallas and Baton Rouge. Numerous conservative commentators have joined the chorus. There is even a Change.org petition calling for the hate group label.

In our view, these critics fundamentally misunderstand the nature of hate groups and the BLM movement.

Generally speaking, hate groups are, by our definition, those that vilify entire groups of people based on immutable characteristics such as race or ethnicity. Federal law takes a similar approach."

Source:https://www.splcenter.org/news/2016/07/19/black-lives-matter-not-hate-group

Also addressing this:

BLM is responsible for some pretty terrible things — Judaka

Makes me think of this:

"Mass Resistance (or MassResistance) posted a blog June 11 claiming BLM is a “violent Marxist-Leninist group at its core” and that its goals are ultimately “destructive to blacks.”

The blog included racist dog whistles, such as claiming BLM is “relentlessly angry” and “violent” – pervasive stereotypes applied to Black people. Black women are most often dehumanized as “angry” while Black men are often characterized as “violent,” thus providing an excuse to enact racist state violence against them."

Source:https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2020/06/29/mass-resistance-falsely-claims-black-lives-matter-destroys-families-likens-movement-nazi

And yes, your right, some Americans are very fearful of the fact that "whites" aren't going to be a majority soon (meaning 30 years or so from now). — ssu

Because of the fact that whites at least as it is genuinely known, is that they'll lose political/social influence that they've held on for so long. The fear that they'll be the minority in the United States, and the fear that they believe minorities will take advantage based on numbers. However, these fears are misplaced, but this also demonstrates the fragility and subconscious guilt many have based on the historical atrocities that has afflicted people of color.

All they need to see is a documentary from South Africa about the crime there and think "OMG, it's going to be here THE SAME!" That's the new racism. — ssu

Wow. First off let's start with apartheid and how it totally affected the black Africans. Not to mention many of the white Dutch who have mistreated the black Africans for so long disenfranchising and displacing many of the indigenous Africans there. However we don't need to look to South Africa for a revolution. I'm largely comfortably with this new generation's open-mindedness to the struggles of people of color.

Because of the fact that whites at least as it is genuinely known, is that they'll lose political/social influence that they've held on for so long. The fear that they'll be the minority in the United States, — Anaxagoras

Feel like giving us a source for this.

The phrase “Black Lives Matter” is a self-evident truth. — NOS4A2

Not according to me and the rest of the 45 million or so Black Americans. My life surely didn't matter when I was walking home at night in my black hospital scrubs and some deputies decided to hop out of their car unholstering the weapon all because they thought my cargo scrub pants were "tactical." My life didn't matter when in graduate school after leaving lecture being stopped by LAPD and having my hands placed on a running car vehicle and when I protested how hot his car hood was being told "don't you people like barbecue?" Surely, BLM then wasn't evident. My life doesn't matter to a cop. They'll see my tattoos and automatically label me a gang members regardless of my education and/or clinical profession.

The group Black Lives Matter was founded by “trained Marxists”, so hopefully we can differentiate between the phrase and the “movement”. — NOS4A2

I'm not concerned about the founders political/social ideology cause clearly conservative outlets have already brandished the movement as anti-white, anti-American, anti-police etc.

Because of the fact that whites at least as it is genuinely known, is that they'll lose political/social influence that they've held on for so long. The fear that they'll be the minority in the United States, — Anaxagoras

I'm largely comfortably with this new generation's open-mindedness to the struggles of people of color. — Anaxagoras

Are they fearful or open minded? I’m not sure where you’re coming from?

Feel like giving us a source for this. — Brett

Sure, for example according to Vox:

"But the prospect of being in the minority can suddenly make white identity — and all the historical privilege that comes with it — salient. And, she guessed, the prospect of losing majority status was likely to make people (perhaps unconsciously) uneasy. In other words, she wondered if white people would read the news of a coming “minority majority” shift as a threat, a “threat” powerful enough to change their thoughts and behavior."

Source:https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/1/26/14340542/white-fear-trump-psychology-minority-majority

Another source, according to The Miami Herald:

"It turns out the anxiety we should be talking about is that felt by Johnson’s source. For most of the 242 years of our national life, one thing has always been predictable as a children’s movie and dependable as the floor beneath your feet. White men will always be represented in, and in fact, will dominate, any room where power and authority are wielded.

But the times, they are a’changing. Women, people of color, religious minorities and others have slowly forced their way into those rooms. Additionally, there is the demographic fact that white preponderance — and, thus, unchallenged white prerogative — are shrinking."

Source:https://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/opn-columns-blogs/leonard-pitts-jr/article193285194.html

Are they fearful or open minded? I’m not sure where you’re coming from? — Brett

I'm mostly referring to the U.S. whites who believe they need to sustain their privilege, power, and influence in U.S. society. But because of their demographic decline and the rise of minority-majority, the stoking of fear resides in the fact that these like-minded whites will fear losing their influence on society. Imagine having to see people in media represent you for so long on television only to be eventually replaced by a person of color. This paradigmn shift will cause fear because now, while being so comfortable in seeing someone represent you everyday, you'll go from this historical representation to a new one where you'll see a minority-majority shift where now people of color are common place and in positions of power and whites are less represented socially.

That looks like conjecture more than fact.

Well, I don't enjoy characterising groups, it's tedious. I don't like identity politics and I don't agree with violence. Racial histories, giving racial groups undue significance or irrational objectives and emotions, identity politics, so silly.

However, what is BLM guilty of? BLM is too big now, it means too many different things to many different people. Should anyone under the umbrella of BLM be judged for the actions of a few? When there's barely any formal structure?

I think I said too much in my initial post, I will just leave it at that.

I don't have a Black Lives Matter lawn sign, bumper sticker, or pin and won't be getting one. I'm white; maybe I have a touch of white supremacy, or something... I don't know. At any rate,

Racial histories, giving racial groups undue significance or irrational objectives and emotions, identity politics, so silly. — Judaka

Yes, I agree with that; on the other hand, a not-overly-sympathetic white guy can see that black people have consistently been discriminated against--maybe not all individually--but as a group, certainly.

Working people--black, white, and brown--have been the recipients of exploitation and discrimination across the board. That's the nature of capitalism: exploit, accumulate, conquer, rule. When you are broke, you are broke -- and it means very similar things whether one is black or white. Black people have been aggregated in certain places more than white people (by segregation), so they are more visible in their suffering.

Hmmm who are these "most people?" — Anaxagoras

I don't understand the question. 'Most people' refers to most people, it's a statistical assumption based on the samples that I've had the opportunity to learn about thus far. I get that you might disagree with the assumption, maybe prefer a different range of samples, but I'm not seeing the confusion over the tern 'most people' itself, I'm afraid.

There's always someone poorer than you, but there's always someone less poor who should be doing more. — Isaac


I get what you're saying here, but what does that have to do with the crux of BLM's message of systemic racism and the lack of transparency when it comes to police misconduct? — Anaxagoras

It hasn't got anything to do with it, I don't think you understood what I said. I was saying that unlike poverty (which is a scalar issue) race is considered (falsely, I might add) to be a binomial issue. So I'm not saying it has anything to do with BLM. I'm saying it is unlike the BLM issues because it is scalar (there's always someone both poorer and richer than you). You asked why people have a problem with it. My answer was that unlike poverty (where people can always have both worse-off and better-off), race is (widely considered to be) either 'black' or 'white', not 'more-black' and 'less-black'.

Victims of systemic racism (as a group) is exclusionary, it is not universally possible to both sympathise and be a victim in the way one can with poverty (I sympathise with the homeless, but I'm not paid enough to cover my mortgage). Either I am a victim (where I may or may not also sympathise with other victims) - because I'm black, or I sympathise with victims (but am not one myself) - because I'm white.

My point was that people tend to cope with the guilt of being at some level of prosperity (or opportunity, security, freedom... - whatever measure of well-being you want to use), by also seeing themselves as victims of those higher up the scale than they are. They can both sympathise, and be sympathised of.

Campaigning against systemic injustice based on (false) binomial characteristic like race switches many people off because it puts them only in 'sympathiser' category, not also in the 'sympathised with' category. That makes people uncomfortable. It also makes them look much harder for inconsistencies and hypocrisy, they really want to find some way in which the group they've been excluded from either don't deserve sympathy, or aren't an exclusionary group at all.

Thankfully, the above is not the only psychology in play, and the BLM movement has enough support from other aspects of group dynamics to get some of its objectives met. As I said at the outset, I'm not criticising the movement, you just asked why people have a problem with it. That's my answer.

The bottom line is that no step in ending racism or systemic racism requires identity politics.

Identity politics just distracts from the real issues such as poverty, police brutality, the mass incarceration and so on. I think fighting racism is a bit of a game of wack-a-mole, you see it and you give it a whack.

Otherwise, most problems that affect black Americans can simply be characterised as bad policy and poverty, as you say.

Wow. First off let's start with apartheid and how it totally affected the black Africans. — Anaxagoras

No need even for a history lecture to counter the argument, anaxagoras. To be a black farmer in South Africa is as dangerous if not more dangerous, so the statistics simply tell there is no revenge ethnic cleansing going on. The simple fact is that South Africa is a dangerous country and what better places to rob than a lone farm in the countryside separated from other population far away from any police patrol. And the USA surely isn't South Africa, just to start with how crazy these ideas are.

The bottom line is that no step in ending racism or systemic racism requires identity politics.

Identity politics just distracts from the real issues such as poverty, police brutality, the mass incarceration and so on. I think fighting racism is a bit of a game of wack-a-mole, you see it and you give it a whack.

Otherwise, most problems that affect black Americans can simply be characterised as bad policy and poverty, as you say. — Judaka

Very well said.

I would go further and say that identity politics is not just a distraction, but a deliberate way to further polarization of the political field and reinforce the status quo where bipartisanship or any kind of consensus seeking doesn't exist. Both parties encourage their own view of identy politics and welcome it with open arms.

Not according to me and the rest of the 45 million or so Black Americans. My life surely didn't matter when I was walking home at night in my black hospital scrubs and some deputies decided to hop out of their car unholstering the weapon all because they thought my cargo scrub pants were "tactical." My life didn't matter when in graduate school after leaving lecture being stopped by LAPD and having my hands placed on a running car vehicle and when I protested how hot his car hood was being told "don't you people like barbecue?" Surely, BLM then wasn't evident. My life doesn't matter to a cop. They'll see my tattoos and automatically label me a gang members regardless of my education and/or clinical profession.

A couple bad experiences might lead one to use faulty generalizations, and that is probably true for some police as well.

If the police treat you unjustly—excessive use of force, denial of constitutional rights, failure to intervene, indifference to risk of harm—you have legal recourse to sue their jack-boots off.

I would go further and say that identity politics is not just a distraction, but a deliberate way to further polarization of the political field and reinforce the status quo where bipartisanship or any kind of consensus seeking doesn't exist. Both parties encourage their own view of identy politics and welcome it with open arms. — ssu

I would go a step further than calling it a distraction, i would say its about power and control. There are useful idiots who participate in the PC and outrage culture, and there are real activists who want change, and bad actors using it as an excuse to act shitty AND there is a core ideology spread by idealogues that use the groups, social media structure and social justice culture to exercise authoritarian social control.
We even have an excellent case study, Evergreen University. The academics produced ideologues who produced outrage that produced a culture that produced a cult. It started out just like it has in the wider world, changing definitions of words like “racism”, controlling speech and framing everything as identity politics and it ended up with nothing short of an authoritarian cult roaming around the campus committing acts of violence and hunting down the “racists” and “bigots” who had become everybody but their cult group. Like we see now, the police were told to stand down, to not interfere. Like we see now, the Dean and staff were cowed into submission with guilt and shame so that the cult could take over and thats exactly what they did.
Nazi Germany and the other horrors of modern history started this way too, but somehow its been forgotten. So we have Evergreen, very recent. Lesson learned? Nope! Failure of memory? Nope! Failure of courage, failure of attention.

That looks like conjecture more than fact. — Brett

I've listed several sources that maybe you refused to even read that verifies my position.

Tell 'em, comrade. :fire: Even though your words bounce off of their indoctrinated 'Privilege'.

:up:

but I'm not seeing the confusion over the tern 'most people' itself, I'm afraid. — Isaac

The question was simple who are the "most people" in the context of which you've made that comment?

Victims of systemic racism (as a group) is exclusionary, it is not universally possible to both sympathise and be a victim in the way one can with poverty — Isaac

I see your point.

A couple bad experiences — NOS4A2

Stop. Not a couple but quite a few bad experiences, and shared bad experiences between me, my family, and my community.

If the police treat you unjustly—excessive use of force, denial of constitutional rights, failure to intervene, indifference to risk of harm—you have legal recourse to sue their jack-boots off. — NOS4A2

This is the position that BLM argues because there is no transparency and accountability. Police unions protect officers and complaining on specific officers takes decades for even an internal affairs investigation to occur unless there was a serious incident. My previous post was not generalizing all police officers, simply, I was emphasizing the "my life didn't matter" part to show that in my experiences such reckless behavior displayed by my encounters showed that they didn't care about my human existence.

:strong:

I've listed several sources that maybe you refused to even read that verifies my position. — Anaxagoras

My apologies. I thought your quotes were what a was to read. The actual source itself is more in depth.

My apologies. I thought your quotes were what a was to read. The actual source itself is more in depth. — Brett

No worries

The question was simple who are the "most people" in the context of which you've made that comment? — Anaxagoras

Most people=the majority of the current population of the planet earth ( I suppose we could also make assumptions about past populations, but then we'd have to disentangle cultural and biological influences, though it seems from DeWaal's work that justice might well be a shared notion even among primates)

We even have an excellent case study, Evergreen University. The academics produced ideologues who produced outrage that produced a culture that produced a cult. — DingoJones

Evergreen State College was designed as an experimental institution, opening in 1967. At one time I knew the Dean of Faculty, Willi Unsoeld, and Pete Sinclair, a professor of English, both having been climbers in the Tetons when I was active there. Willi developed an outstanding outdoor program, but was unfortunately killed in a mountaineering accident while leading a student group. So, initially, the sort of conflict described here did not exist. Evergreen was simply a very unusual progressive college that appealed to certain kinds of students, some attracted to the outdoor program, others wishing to design their own curricula.

What happened after the 2016 election had probably been building for awhile, however. And its repercussions have given Evergreen a reputation that has negatively affected enrollment - last year below 3,000. Not all the faculty supported the destructive aspect of the anti-racist agenda, and a couple who did not and were outspoken were essentially driven from the campus, fearing for their safety. You can find a brief discussion of this in the Wikipedia article.

Im very well versed in the incident. :up:

"why do so many people continue to have a problem with it?"

Mostly because the media, and BLMs average supporters, either claim or insinuate that only black people are killed by police in the USA, indicating they don't look things up before believing them.