To what extent is logical structure infused into the domain of phenomenal perception? — Enrique
Logic is part of language — Banno
are you sure? — talminator2856791
Is fundamental logic instinctual to organic cognition as a function for processing certain types of spontaneous causality? — Enrique
Experiments have been done to test apes for a capacity to learn simple logic rules. The evidence is they struggle to master more than a step or two of reasoning depth even with training. — apokrisis
Given that Crows can plan three steps ahead, it's an interesting point. — Banno
Crows can plan three steps ahead, — Banno
I think what the crows (and current AI) are able to do is less than we are able, which we might distinguish as "rational" but I would propose clarifying as semantical: the ability to discern meaning in the sense of discerning what symbols are supposed to be pointed at. — bongo fury
the equivalent of a disjunctive syllogism where the ape could tell that if one food reward cup was empty, then the treat was hidden in the other. — apokrisis
Is fundamental logic instinctual to organic cognition as a function for processing certain types of spontaneous causality? To what extent is logical structure infused into the domain of phenomenal perception? — Enrique
Socrates taught that all basic knowledge (principles) was innate, and we merely combine them into new forms to suit different contexts. That's equivalent to what some thinkers have called "Logical Intuition". :smile:Is fundamental logic instinctual to organic cognition as a function for processing certain types of spontaneous causality? — Enrique
The limitations of these apes seems to be related more with memory capacity and attention span, not necessarily logic. If an ape were to read a long sentence, would it still remember the beginning of the sentence when it reaches the end of it?Experiments have been done to test apes for a capacity to learn simple logic rules. The evidence is they struggle to master more than a step or two of reasoning depth even with training.
This is what we would expect if logic basically piggy backs on the human capacity for language. We have the neurology for syntactic structure - the recursive grammar trick. We can stack up the if/then steps in our working memories. — apokrisis
The limitations of these apes seems to be related more with memory capacity and attention span, not necessarily logic. — Harry Hindu
It seems to me that it is the opposite - that language piggy backs on the capacity for logic. The law of identity, excluded middle and non-contradictions are the most fundamental rules of logic and language simply couldn't be conceived of prior to these rules being inherent within the mind - like that some identifying mark identifies something else. Establishing correlations and relationships has to be an inherent mental skill if you are to correlate some sound or marking with something else. — Harry Hindu
Sounds like thinking occurred before language-use to me. Understanding that there are tools to be used is the precursor to using words as a tool.Apes have a smaller and less powerful version of this area. Hominids evolved a steadily larger one, most likely first for tool making and tool use. Then this became a pre-adaption for the ability to make complex structured vocalisations. — apokrisis
Thought before language or language before thought? That is a bit of a chicken and egg question as the two are entangled. — apokrisis
Like humans, songbirds have facility with structure concepts, for they erect nests that are intricate masses of sticks and brush, clearly envisioning how parts fit together as a whole [my emphasis]. — Enrique
A nest-building bird that followed a procedure mechanically -- add a piece to what we have so far by entwining it in a certain way, leaving ways to use it for the next bit, and preserving a local curvature of such-and-such -- could consistently produce nests with no knowledge of the overall shape its procedure leads to — Srap Tasmaner
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