The animal I am remains alert - alive. And the reasonable man that I am more-or-less continually reaffirms his choices - as choices, even if nothing else. In these I retain (I think) freedom and thus wish to sleep only when in a state of greater inconvenience. That is, even if I cannot keep things always aboil, I try to keep them warm or at least above ambient temperature.

The animal I am remains alert - alive. And the reasonable man that I am more-or-less continually reaffirms his choices - as choices, even if nothing else. In these I retain (I think) freedom and thus wish to sleep only when in a state of greater inconvenience. — tim wood

I am not sure what you mean exactly. Why is reaffirming choices that are neutral to tedious so good anyways? I am not sure what is so holy about the act of reaffirming lukewarm to negative experiences. Yay reaffirming! (in a wimpering tone)..

That is, even if I cannot keep things always aboil, I try to keep them warm or at least above ambient temperature. — tim wood

This I don't get other than another version of as predicted this:

the pragmatic everyday types that think that reading and doing menial tasks can be "Zen-like" — schopenhauer1

To which I said:

I think are both glossing over the fact that much of the time, sleep can either be switched out or is downright more preferable than the X task at hand. — schopenhauer1

I love sleep, but sleep is so much better after a fulfilling day. So I do not think trading being awake for being asleep is very wise, because one requires the other. And I do not think sleep is in anyway comparable to non-existence.

I love sleep, but sleep is so much better after a fulfilling day. So I do not think trading being awake for being asleep is very wise, because one requires the other. And I do not think sleep is in anyway comparable to non-existence. — NOS4A2

You didn't really read the OP. It wasn't about fulfilling things switching out with sleep. And you didn't read the as-predicted rebuttals, because I can already predict your response to this post. I didn't say sleep was non-existence. It certainly isn't waking life though, by definition. Think harder.

I did really read it. I figured the gist of it, beyond the jargon and labelling, was that if you prefer sleep to being awake you would probably prefer non-existence to existence, as if they were in some way comparable.

I did really read it. I figured the gist of it, beyond the jargon and labelling, was that if you prefer sleep to being awake you would probably prefer non-existence to existence, as if they were in some way comparable. — NOS4A2

Ah, that's what you got out of it- a debate on the ontology of sleep vs. non-existence. Yes we all know they are not the same thing. Doesn't mean that not being conscious the waking-kind-of-way is not the gist here.

Ah, that's what you got out of it- a debate on the ontology of sleep vs. non-existence. Yes we all know they are not the same thing. Doesn't mean that not being conscious the waking-kind-of-way is not the gist here.

I got out of it a bad argument for antinatalism, or “never being born being optimal”, which you stated before you started playing “would you rather” with sleep.

I got out of it a bad argument for antinatalism, or “never being born being optimal”, which you stated before you started playing “would you rather” with sleep. — NOS4A2

Fine, replace it with "Sleep being optimal".. argument still stands in the waking-kind-of-way thing.

That’s fair. I apologize for pooh-poohing your argument.

tim wood
5k
The animal I am remains alert - alive. And the reasonable man that I am more-or-less continually reaffirms his choices - as choices, even if nothing else. In these I retain (I think) freedom and thus wish to sleep only when in a state of greater inconvenience. That is, even if I cannot keep things always aboil, I try to keep them warm or at least above ambient temperature. — tim wood

Agree!

I'm 84...and although I've had my share of hard times, I've lived a great life. Glad it came along. Still getting lots of kicks...and have no desire for it to end soon, although I am not in favor of a "last few years" of the kind I've seen some live. I hope the ending, when it comes, comes quick. Standing in the doorway of that warehouse that exploded in Beirut would have made a fine good-bye.

Doesn't sound as though Shopenhauer is having much fun on his trip through this life.

Hope that turns around.

Can we divorce the preference for sleeping from the pleasure of waking up feeling refreshed? Or the comfort of snuggling up in bed while trying to go to sleep? Also, most people wouldn't wish to sleep all the time, right?

Can we divorce the preference for sleeping from the pleasure of waking up feeling refreshed? Or the comfort of snuggling up in bed while trying to go to sleep? — Judaka

Very poetic notions and true...for some. Having had insomnia for several years I can attest that even sleep can be a burden.

In general I'd like to request clarification on what it exactly means to "rather be doing" something that you really can't experience in any way shape or form let alone remember. Lol. Just say you'd rather be sitting there doing nothing or whatever happens to tickle your fancy. More specifically...

1) There are a lot of de facto things in the context of living in any given human social system. I'd rather be sleeping than clothes shopping or grocery shopping. I'd rather be sleeping than working on various spreadsheets or reading technical material that isn't interesting but necessary. I'd rather be sleeping than doing a lot of various tasks throughout the day big and small. — schopenhauer1

What's wrong with clothes shopping? Is the store crowded or shabby, prices too high, don't have what you want to wear? Just not a vain person, casual white T-shirt and blue jeans and you're good to go? That's great. More power to you, rather more time and energy to spend on productive things. The same with grocery shopping. Not of a discerning palette? Just need something you're able to stomach to fill you up some and you're set? Again, all that better. You have to prefer either clothes or food in a non-essential kind of way. What's wrong with doing so in a perfect environment, with enough funds, and enough time to do so- hypothetically. A gorgeous, vast building inspired by the collective progress of human architecture since the dawn of time (or if that's not your thing a cozy little shop) to peruse through an incredible selection that consists of goods from not only all corners of the Earth but even entire periods of time? Personally I think you've just become complacent and accustomed to what others who came before you could never fathom in their wildest dreams. You can be feasting on the finest American beef, prime Italian cuisine, exquisite Asian delicacies, exotic Middle Eastern favorites, and more in a matter of mere minutes without even leaving your couch for goodness sake. Imagine a poor working class person in the Middle Ages entering a Wal-Mart for the first time. They'd think they died and went to Heaven. I don't know man, complacency is it's own punishment.

Computers are fun. Would you rather keep track with pen and paper meticulously jotting everything down letter by letter and hand-delivering it? How unfortunate you have to read material that people who dedicated their lives to the betterment of the human condition would have given their lives for not half a century ago. I do hope you'll survive.

I don't know. I like your profile, it makes me smile. And what posts of yours I have seen before this one. Again, I separate the art from the artist. I'm on the warpath against an idea, nothing else. Rather attitudes or states of mind that are detrimental to how ideas were formed in the first place. For your and everyone else's benefit I assure you.

Computers are fun. Would you rather keep track with pen and paper meticulously jotting everything down letter by letter and hand-delivering it? — Outlander

I really like this idea of setting up a pseudo-dialectic between a poor way of doing something and a better way of doing something. You're right, we have a lot of positive choices in our lives and things really could be a lot worse for a lot of people. And it is about a lot of little things, not just one big yes or no. Like life. :clap:

Oh shit, you guys are right! Why didnt I just ponder the wonders of modern technology to get me through! I see the errors of my ways, and now I rather do everything!! Its all changed! Its a whiole new world.

Oh shit, you guys are right! Why didnt I just ponder the wonders of modern technology to get me through! I see the errors of my ways, and now I rather do everything!! Its all changed! Its a whiole new world. — schopenhauer1

Isn't the power of choice a wonderful thing? :up:

Wish that was a true situation before having choices Id rather not deal with in the first place.

Also, comparing your bad choices with people worse off in some technogical way doesnt make the situation better. Relatively speaking, people have to deal with the situations as presented in contingent historical time, space, and circumstances. The problem is dealing ith in the first place. Always dealing with something. Techniques like shaming one for not liking the situation are tawdry post facto bandaids you give to children.

Rather, it is true that much of life is has neutral or negative experiences that can quite easily and if possible, willingly be replaced by sleep (if it was easy to sleep on a whim). Actually, what I find interesting is WYRBS morality transcends all cultural contexts. There is no fact about a culture that leads to ought rather be doing anything. Walmarts and boutique stores dont make my preference any different.

Edited a bit

Like it or not...each person here has got "life."

What are your thoughts on simply ending it?

Should suicide be made more accessible and easy?

I think it should be. Interested in what you think.

Should suicide be made more accessible and easy?

I think it should be. Interested in what you think. — Frank Apisa

I think it is an okay option if thought out all the way through. I am not against it. But as Cioran says, "It is not worth the bother to kill yourself because you always kill yourself too late". That's kind of my thoughts on it. By the time you go ahead with it, the things that led to it have already happened. Also Schopenhauer:

"Suicide may also be regarded as an experiment--a question which man puts to Nature, trying to force her to an answer. The question is this: What change will death produce in a man's existence and in his insight into the nature of things? It is a clumsy experiment to make; for it involves the destruction of the very consciousness which puts the question and awaits the answer".

Thus the relief one feels is never satisfied in the very outcome itself, making a sort of paradox. Rather, suicide is often the longing to never be. But we can never, never be to begin with. Thus, poor Silenus was right, but can never be really acted upon

'you, seed of an evil genius and precarious offspring of hard fortune, whose life is but for a day, why do you compel me to tell you those things of which it is better you should remain ignorant? For he lives with the least worry who knows not his misfortune; but for humans, the best for them is not to be born at all, not to partake of nature's excellence; not to be is best, for both sexes. This should be our choice, if choice we have; and the next to this is, when we are born, to die as soon as we can

My overall idea about what to do about the whole "life" thing is form Communities of Consolation. In this community, one can feel free to gripe all they want, be comforted by others and comfort others. Live life knowing of the situation of our own insatiable dissatisfaction, of our own plight into necessary and contingent suffering. Be aware that we are always in a situation of dealing with this or that (it doesn't matter the cultural, historical, or contingent context, this is ALWAYS a factor).

Here is a question for you Frank. What happened if everyone thought like a Philosophical Pessimist? How would that change how the world operates? Or would it? Would the reality of the situation still be that people would simply slog on in their dealings with and move forward the same the same the same as it ever was.

Here is a question for you Frank. What happened if everyone thought like a Philosophical Pessimist? How would that change how the world operates? Or would it? Would the reality of the situation still be that people would simply slog on in their dealings with and move forward the same the same the same as it ever was. — schopenhauer1

Really, really tough question for me, because I almost NEVER think like a pessimist. I consider myself one of the luckiest people ever...things just seem to break my way. I've had some tough moments in my 84 years (cancer and a minor stroke)...but I always came up with a rose in my mouth. I live at a poverty level...but I am content with what I have and desire almost nothing more.

The covid thing has got me thinking about suicide, though. The thought of dying by drowning in one's own fluids over weeks of intensive care...bereft of family and friends to ease the exit...is so horrible to contemplate, I am sure if it were happening to me, I would be hoping for a quicker, less painful ending. Assisted suicide would be one way for that to happen.

Just a thought problem. I doubt anyone right now will be given that "quicker, less painful" option.

Thanks for all the other thoughts, Schopenhauer. I'll consider them more as I follow the thread.

If throughout the regular course of the day, you would rather be non-existent/asleep/unconscious than doing that particular task/chore/thing-at-hand, then it was better never having been for those moments. If those moments add up to a majority of the day, it may be the case that it was better never to have been more generally. Similarly, if what you are doing is neutral to the point where you would not mind switching out the task-at-hand for sleeping, that also counts for this argument. — schopenhauer1

Somehow I have to question such "would"-arguments. The simple question is why you wouldn't just do it. A strong thesis might be that such "would rather" statements are more like a kind of self-expression than to take factually.
I sleep little. Yet I would feel tempted to say that I do not value the wake time in itself. I might imagine that sleeping instead would be okay. But sleeping as much as I theoretically could would result in a near "work-sleep-work" cycle. And that kind of existence would seem horrible. So I have to really prefer being wake. My practice speaks against my own "judgement": Why would I feel the need to compensate for the work-time by doing other things (awake) if switching the "superfluous" wake time for sleep would really be ok?
So what do you mean with your question? The real "implicit" judgement or the imagination?

Edit: In reflection only working and sleeping is not that bad at all....

Suppose there is nothing it is like to be dead.

So there will potentially be something it is like to be after one has taken the suicidal leap.

There is nothing it is like to be asleep. There is only what it is like to be around sleep (ex. drowsie awareness, warm under the covers, thinking about preferences in a bed, feeling rested).

Bring asleep has a purpose. You are either tired. Or want to take a rest for whatever reason. When you're asleep the brain does its repair work. By your logic you're saying that sleep is some sort of waste of time and useless relating to non existing in some way.That is not the case like food. It isn't needed, the body can use gluconeogenesis and use up all of it's own fat over several months as long as you have water in your system. Sleeping is essential to life like water. There's a reason the. Brain goes into sleep deprecation debt for months for those who lack adequate sleep. All of us would rather be doing x than y in most cases if given unlimited options.

I think these miss the point of the OP. If you rather not be doing something, and in fact rather simply not even be conscious than doing that activity, and this adds up to most of the day, that is indicating a strong preference for not existing for much of the day. Now aggregate this...

There is nothing it is like to be asleep. There is only what it is like to be around sleep (ex. drowsie awareness, warm under the covers, thinking about preferences in a bed, feeling rested). — Nils Loc

There is something called sleep. It exists. "It like to be asleep" would be unconsciousness. Do you have to be aware for "something to be like"? Maybe, but that's not the topic at hand really.

But sleeping as much as I theoretically could would result in a near "work-sleep-work" cycle. And that kind of existence would seem horrible. — Heiko

Why would I feel the need to compensate for the work-time by doing other things (awake) if switching the "superfluous" wake time for sleep would really be ok?
So what do you mean with your question? The real "implicit" judgement or the imagination? — Heiko

The imagination. Clearly just sleeping would result in eventual death if enacted. The point is rather, how much of normal waking days would you not mind replacing with sleep instead of having to do them? If it is neutral or negative, and you switched those out, how much of the day would be that?

Sleeping is essential to life like water. There's a reason the. Brain goes into sleep deprecation debt for months for those who lack adequate sleep. All of us would rather be doing x than y in most cases if given unlimited options. — Bright7

Isn't it ironic that one of the things you would want to replace with trying to sleep is sleep? So that certainly falls under the many things where you would rather replace X activity with sleep itself.

The imagination. Clearly just sleeping would result in eventual death if enacted. The point is rather, how much of normal waking days would you not mind replacing with sleep instead of having to do them? If it is neutral or negative, and you switched those out, how much of the day would be that? — schopenhauer1

I would say then it is clearly neutral towards sleeping most of the time. There are very few things I am eagerly looking forward to. I just wanted to point out, that the result of really doing so however would be something I would not be okay with.
I do not see if this really effects your argument yet, though. But asking for every moment separately "Sleep instead?" and asking for the sum seems to lead to different results. This is strange.