This is clearly an emotionally charged topic. It's best for white privilege to be clearly defined, because it seems that many people hereabouts and elsewhere have differing thought, beliefs, emotions, and subsequent ideas regarding it. The mere invocation of the term "white privilege" can instantly and completely change one's emotional state of mind, and that holds good for whites and non whites alike. — creativesoul
White privilege is the direct, demonstrable, and inevitable result of systemic and/or institutional racism. Put simply, it is what white people do not have to deal with on a daily basis that non whites do. It is the injury because one is non white that white people avoid suffering because they are not. The negative effects/affects that racist people, policies, belief systems, and social practices created remain extant in American society. They continue to directly impact the lives and livelihoods of the people that they were originally designed to discriminate against. — creativesoul
Honoring them goes a long way towards building a movement to end racism. — creativesoul
Effectively ending racism requires understanding white privilege. — creativesoul
If they feel like non whites are attacking them personally because of the fact that they are white, it is very hard to convince them that those non whites are not racist, regardless of whether or not they actually are. — creativesoul
Such frameworks using white privilege do not promote the kind of cohesion that's necessary for ending racism. — creativesoul
However many times when non whites begin talking in terms of "white people" they are guilty of the exact same gross overgeneralization fallacy that underlies white racist mentality about non whites. Multiplying the error does not serve to correct the underlying problems. Rather, it further reinforces deep seated racist beliefs rather than helping to defuse them. — creativesoul
Putting white privilege to good use as a means to help end systemic racist takes mutual respect of the participants in the discussion about racism and it's effects/affects. Shedding light on white privilege does not require attacking whites because of it. — creativesoul
That's not surprising given that privilege is subjective. One person's privilege is another person's taboo. We all don't value the same things, so what you consider a privilege, I might not.To quite the contrary, there are some clear indications that we're still not talking about the same thing(s). — creativesoul
Talking about white privilege is required in order to understand the effects/affects of racism. The removal of white privilege would effectively be and/or signal the end of racism. That does not require taking anything away from white people. It requires cultivating a society where white privilege no longer exists because no one suffers the effects/affects and/or injuries stemming from racism.
To try to dismiss the problem of racist outcomes by saying that people should just "smarten up" and stop believing in race is like saying that the solution for our economic problems is for people to just stop believing in money. It is not that simple or surgical. Few people are able to cherry-pick their worldview in this way. — Pro Hominem
I was looking for someone to attempt to defend the white privilege framing and finally, someone did. I have to admit, I wasn't expecting to see it but I'm pleasantly surprised...
...I accept the separation between how the white privilege conceptualisation can be applied. — Judaka
A lot of what you're talking about is a hard sell, "not being harassed by police" is not a white privilege... — Judaka
I am not convinced that the perpetuators of the white privilege framing are mostly non-white... — Judaka
I agree with those that say insisting on recognizing "white privilege" is not useful or helpful to solving the larger issue. The problem is not (for example) that I went to college and I'm white. The problem is (for example) that sometimes cops seem to kill people because they're black. — Pro Hominem
I would point out that while race has no scientific grounding, there are cultural differences that are of great import. The generic flaw in liberalism is that in seeking to treat everyone as equals it inadvertently seeks to minimises these cultural differences. In the end this looks like white males arguing that the solution to the world's problems is for everyone to act more like white males.
Such differences are to be celebrated, not eradicated — Banno
The real reason to avoid white privilege in this discussion is because it's not a helpful concept if the goal is the "end of racism". — Pro Hominem
Effectively ending racism requires understanding both it's motivations and it's effects/affects. — creativesoul
Talking about white privilege is required in order to understand the effects/affects of racism. The removal of white privilege would effectively be and/or signal the end of racism. That does not require taking anything away from white people. It requires cultivating a society where white privilege no longer exists because no one suffers the effects/affects and/or injuries stemming from racism. — creativesoul
Your having gone to college and being white is not white privilege. White privilege is the negative effects/affects of systemic racism that you do not suffer from because you're white. — creativesoul
First, there is a scientific grounding of race. — Harry Hindu
Second, cultural differences aren't important when hiring someone or giving them a raise. — Harry Hindu
Third, what is the difference between acting human vs. acting black or white? What does it even mean to act black or white? It seems to me that putting people in boxes is what is racist. I guess for you, acting black is voting Democrat and acting white is voting Republucan? — Harry Hindu
Way back, I entered this conversation with the example of stairs privileging the ambulatory. I chose that example with care, because of what it shows about privilege.
Privilege is not often intentional. Stairs are a cheap, quick way into a building, and were not built with the exclusion of certain people in mind. But that was the result.
Fixing the problem will cost money.
Fixing the problem will cause inconvenience.
The result will be the removal of an encumbrance, and hence have long term benefits for everyone.
Importantly, the first step in removing this encumbrance is to recognise it. No one pulls out a set of stairs on a whim. Recognising the issue involves seeing the issue from the point of view of someone who has quite a different experience to oneself. Recognising the issue involves recognising one's privilege. That is, privilege should be pointed out. — Banno
Effectively ending racism requires understanding both it's motivations and it's effects/affects.
— creativesoul
Just as a matter of rational principle, it most assuredly doesn't. In order to end something one only need know its causes. There's no inherent necessity to know its effects. Eliminating the cause of a thing will eliminate the the thing, regardless of whether one is even aware of the effects. — Isaac
Premise after premise of yours, I disagree with. — Judaka
I have broadened my understanding of the different ways in which white privilege is being applied and defended. Not a useless conversation. — Judaka
The differences in our perspective are great enough that despite agreeing in the reality of systemic racism and the moral importance of resolving the issues it caused, I am as fearful of what you might propose based on your framing as I am of inaction. Where you see black people, I see people, where you see inequity, I see poverty. The injustice here doesn't need to be described in racial terms and I think that's our fundamental disagreement. — Judaka
Good, this is certainly part of the goal here. Do you find any single sense of "white privilege" more well-grounded than any other? — creativesoul
There are many white people who openly say and actually believe that racism is not acceptable and it ought be removed from American society. Some of these white people come from areas in the country where there is very little ethnic and/or racial diversity, so they have had little to no personal experience and/or interactions with non whites. Rural America in particular simply does not have the degree of diversity that is common in the larger cities, particularly along the coastlines. Not everyone in these areas holds strong and clear racist belief against non whites, even if they come from a community where those remain in practice. They see racism when it's undeniably open and public, they know it's wrong, but they do not recognize the subtlety of white privilege. That takes someone else to show them in a manner that they're open and able to understand, which does not include personal attacks because they are white, as well as a white who is capable of listening to another's plight because they are not. It takes mutual respect. — creativesoul
What you see is based upon conflating distinctly different things, I'm afraid. However, we may have more than enough agreement between us to move the conversation forward. Perhaps it will help ease your fears... — creativesoul
The stairs analogy doesn't really work. — Pro Hominem
The generic flaw in liberalism is that in seeking to treat everyone as equals it inadvertently seeks to minimises cultural differences. In the end this looks like white males arguing that the solution to the world's problems is for everyone to act more like white males. — Banno
Your having gone to college and being white is not white privilege. White privilege is the negative effects/affects of systemic racism that you do not suffer from because you're white.
— creativesoul
This is exactly the problem with the concept. You can only define it in the negative. White privilege is not privilege at all. It is the ABSENCE of being treated unfairly because one is non-white. — Pro Hominem
To put this another way, no one (who isn't themselves a racist of a different type) wants to END white privilege... — Pro Hominem
Using the term "white privilege" has the practical effect of irritating or offending some people who feel targeted or just lumped in unfairly. It has no corresponding utility or benefit in race conversations to offset this. — Pro Hominem
If it is pointed out to a white person that a black person was treated badly in a situation that both experienced, say a job interview or an encounter with a police officer, the proper response for the white person is not "I feel guilty and terrible that I was treated well", it is "I feel terrible that you were treated poorly", and hopefully they could agree to work together to try to change that in the future.
It is not necessary or helpful to demonize all white people for being white in order to try to improve conditions for people who are non-white. — Pro Hominem
It's not an analogy. It is an example. The disenfranchisement caused to non-ambulatory people is real. But thanks, by denying that this is a problem you have reinforce my view that privilege cannot be easily recognised by the privileged. — Banno
Everyone who can walk a flight of stairs does not need to spend any time thinking about the fact that there are some who can't. There is no injustice to being able to walk. — Pro Hominem
The generic flaw in liberalism is that in seeking to treat everyone as equals it inadvertently seeks to minimises cultural differences. In the end this looks like white males arguing that the solution to the world's problems is for everyone to act more like white males. — Banno
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