Interesting stuff, I think. So what is required, I guess, is a charismatic movement based upon a rational message. — Pantagruel

Stage left, enter Trump shout make the USA great again.

Unfortunately the idea that one country can be great all on its own is now archaic (isolationism). So that wouldn't be a rational message. Then again, I wonder if the great mass of people are even moved by rationality any more? Perhaps what the world wants now is...neo-rationalism?

Unfortunately the idea that one country can be great all on its own is now archaic (isolationism). — Pantagruel

That would depend on the definition of great that you use.

Then again, I wonder if the great mass of people are even moved by rationality any more? — Pantagruel

The great mass of any population is moved by what it wants to hear. If people are pissed of about something and then someone comes along offering a solution, even if it is bullshit, they will still listen and be moved into responding to it.

Perhaps what the world wants now is...neo-rationalism? — Pantagruel

Others think that what the world needs now is another major war to put things right.

Unfortunately the idea that one country can be great all on its own is now archaic (isolationism).
— Pantagruel

That would depend on the definition of great that you use. — Sir2u

I don't think so. To be great, you must first be good. A thing is good if it functions well, or performs its functions well. America is a society. So when does a society function well? A society is a complex system. The question is, does the geographical domain of America truly contain that system? Or does that only describe some of the parameters of its operation?

In the past, it was possible for cultures to exist side by side and yet function almost independently. Separation in space contributed to a separateness of identity. Points of exchange between two cultures were few and limited, trade and traders, markets, possibly some inter-marriage.

Fast forward to the modern era. The corporations which rule the world span global divides of natural and cultural boundaries. Small, isolated and under-developed nations are not permitted to evolve in peace but are economically invaded for their resources, and forced to embrace a suddenly modernized version of culture, a culture now no longer uniquely their own.

America is not the source of this cultural model, although there are those who may boast and think this is so.

America is the sum of all its inhabitants. But the lifestyle of these people is determined by the actions of corporations, aligned with no national interests, no interests but their own growth. Gradually all cultures are being smoothed into a generic brand of modernity. At one time, national identity was the most inclusive interest-group to which anyone could hope to belong. Now, global telecommunication makes it possible for each person to communicate with virtual enclaves of individuals dispersed across the globe but aligned with us in values.


No, there is no "America" any more to make great again, any more than there is a "Canada." Instead, we are a world of a million factions. Villages of rec.crafts.quilting, alt.games.chess . And alt.right, and alt.left . I wonder how many people ever think anymore of the origins of that banner, alt.right, in the usenet culture? It is "alt" because it exists in the alternative hierarchy, which was everything that was not in the mainstream comp, misc, news, rec, soc, sci and talk hierarchies. Alt.right.makeamericagreat is just another interest group, right alongside rec.games.computer, and rec.crafts.quilting.

Alt.right is just a faction of shared interests. And if it is truly alt, then it is because it sets itself apart from the mainstream, the majority. So what right could alt.right possibly have to impose its particular version of values on the rest of us, those who do not include alt.right among our chosen set of interests?

If there is a society, then its lines should be drawn around the clusters of interests which we share with each other. Sci.bio.earth . Soc.rights-human. The big ones. The ones that include us all. Share your alt.right or your alt.left values with your alt.friends . We need to save the mainstream, and the mainstream has to include everyone. Even if you are in America, you are not just an American. You have bigger responsibilities. We all do.

I don't think so. — Pantagruel

So why did so many people vote for Trump?

To be great, you must first be good. — Pantagruel

Where is this a law. Genghis Khan was great, one one can say he was good. But the battle call that Trump adopted hit straight to the heart of many, because that was what they wanted. He never stated what would make America great in any concrete promises but played on the ideas of the people as to what would do so. It is not his fault that there are 60 million different views on what would make America great, but that was what the people wanted and he offered it to them.
And most importantly they accepted it. People from every conceivably part of the geographical domain of America voted for him.

No, there is no "America" any more to make great again, — Pantagruel

No need to tell me, just go a head and tell the American people that are getting ready to vote Trump into office again.

The problem with your idea is that you are not all of the American people. I am reasonably sure that 99% of those people do not really understand or maybe they just do not believe that their lives are so controlled as you seem to imply. And because they do not believe they still think that it is possible to make the country great again, even if not with Trump.