• TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Bayesian inferenceBanno

    :chin: How?
  • Mikie
    6.6k
    being real - as in existing independently of X's mindTheMadFool

    Says who? Why should we start with the assumption that "reality" means anything that "exists" independently of our "minds"?
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Says who? Why should we start with the assumption that "reality" means anything that "exists" independently of our "minds"?Xtrix

    If that's false then dreams must be real.
  • Anthony
    197
    Real is decided by humans. Truth is not. The decision to live according to reality or truth is a big one indeed.
  • Banno
    24.8k


    ...so you are not trying to perform some sort of Bayesian calculation?

    Then what is it you think you are doing?
  • Banno
    24.8k
    Real is decided by humans.Anthony

    Exactly wrong. Real is there regardless of what you decide. As is truth.
  • Anthony
    197
    I see. Maybe I have "consensus reality" taking up a lot of real estate in my head toward the term "reality."
  • Banno
    24.8k
    dreams must be real.TheMadFool

    Your dreams are not real? So you remember dreams you did not have? How could you know this?
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    ...so you are not trying to perform some sort of Bayesian calculation?

    Then what is it you think you are doing?
    Banno

    It's basic probability that I'm doing and doesn't involve Bayes' theorem if that's what you're referring to by "Bayesian calculation".
  • Banno
    24.8k
    Maybe I have "consensus reality" taking up a lot of real estate in my head toward the term "reality."Anthony

    It's a common mistake. A consensus of belief makes money real, but is irrelevant to gravity.
  • Banno
    24.8k
    It's basic probability that I'm doingTheMadFool

    No, it isn't.

    I have a bag of marbles, two of which are real and one of which is not real...

    What are the chances of my pulling out the unreal marble?
  • Mikie
    6.6k
    Says who? Why should we start with the assumption that "reality" means anything that "exists" independently of our "minds"?
    — Xtrix

    If that's false then dreams must be real.
    TheMadFool

    Begging the question. Dreams are real, in my view. They're just as much part of the world as anything else -- different than waking life, but certainly still there.

    I think we should move on from Descartes.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    different than waking life, but certainly still thereXtrix

    It's different, right? Falling in a dream leaves no cuts and bruises.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    No, it isn't.

    I have a bag of marbles, two of which are real and one of which is not real...

    What are the chances of my pulling out the unreal marble?
    Banno

    This is basic probability. Probability of pulling out the unreal marble = 1/3
  • Banno
    24.8k
    I think "real" is very close in definition to "most-common".Bird-Up

    No, it isn't. 99 people seeing a ghost does not make the ghost real. Reality is not a popularity contest.

    And see the mess that the notion has made here - a hotchpotch of misguided number crunching that gets nowhere.

    No, the analysis engendered by your post is fraught with errors. See the alternative presented by . and myself. Or alternately, the discussion of reality given by and . Either will be more productive than further torturing statistics.
  • Banno
    24.8k
    Probability of pulling out the unreal marble = 1/3TheMadFool

    :rofl:
  • Banno
    24.8k
    Falling in a dream leaves no cuts and bruises.TheMadFool

    You've never dreamed you had a fall, and in that dream found yourself to have cuts and bruises?
  • Banno
    24.8k
    No, it isn't.

    I have a bag of marbles, two of which are real and one of which is not real...

    What are the chances of my pulling out the unreal marble?
    — Banno

    This is basic probability. Probability of pulling out the unreal marble = 1/3
    TheMadFool

    What if I miscounted the number of unreal marbles in the bag? How can I know for sure how many unreal marbles are really in the bag?
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    You've never dreamed you had a fall, and in that dream found yourself to have cuts and bruises?Banno

    Never and even if I were to get cut and bruised in my dreams they wouldn't carry over into my waking life. There's a difference between these two worlds.
  • Banno
    24.8k
    There's a difference between these two worlds.TheMadFool

    Indeed, there is. This world is real, in contrast to dream worlds.

    See
  • Srap Tasmaner
    4.8k
    Either will be more productive than further torturing statistics.Banno

    I admit the human element seems to have failed us here.... (But) I don't think it's fair to condemn a whole program based on a single slip-up. — Buck Turgidson
  • Anthony
    197
    This world is real, in contrast to dream worlds.Banno

    Simply, idealism does communicate with realism. Dreams are ideas...physical reality is obviously influenced, maybe even created by ideas. Why is there something rather than nothing? Ideas I'd say.

    Metacognition probably came from a self-awareness preexistent in dream worlds. Whether this is a property limited to humans, who could say.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    Indeed, there is. This world is real, in contrast to dream worlds.Banno

    if you're going to bring up the issue of one being something only in contrast to something else then it's alright with me but I remember falling from a great height in my dream without a scratch on my body which is more than I can say about falls I experienced while awake.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    What if I miscounted the number of unreal marbles in the bag? How can I know for sure how many unreal marbles are really in the bag?Banno

    That's your fault, not mine. :smile:
  • Banno
    24.8k
    @TheMadFool, sometimes language appears to be making sense when it really isn't . Much of philosophy is built on this. Consider, again, Alice's response...

    ‘It seems very pretty,’ she said when she had finished it, ‘but it’s rather hard to understand!’ (You see she didn’t like to confess, ever to herself, that she couldn’t make it out at all.) ‘Somehow it seems to fill my head with ideas—only I don’t exactly know what they are! However, somebody killed something: that’s clear, at any rate—’

    ...most of philosophy, summed up in a knutshell.
  • Banno
    24.8k


    I was surprised to see you entertaining the discussion.
  • Banno
    24.8k
    Simply, idealism does communicate with realism.Anthony

    How are you using "idealism" and "realism" here?

    Dreams are ideas...physical reality is obviously influenced, maybe even created by ideas.Anthony

    That strikes me as quite backwards. Dreams are influenced by the physical world.
  • TheMadFool
    13.8k
    sometimes language appears to be making sense when it really isn't . Much of philosophy is built on this. Consider, again, Alice's response...

    ‘It seems very pretty,’ she said when she had finished it, ‘but it’s rather hard to understand!’ (You see she didn’t like to confess, ever to herself, that she couldn’t make it out at all.) ‘Somehow it seems to fill my head with ideas—only I don’t exactly know what they are! However, somebody killed something: that’s clear, at any rate—’

    ...most of philosophy, summed up in a knutshell.
    Banno

    Your reliance on Wittgenstein's philosophy is to a fault.
  • Banno
    24.8k


    Well, it might help the mad fool out of the fly trap...

    But only if he wants out.
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