Bayesian inference — Banno

:chin: How?

being real - as in existing independently of X's mind — TheMadFool

Says who? Why should we start with the assumption that "reality" means anything that "exists" independently of our "minds"?

Says who? Why should we start with the assumption that "reality" means anything that "exists" independently of our "minds"? — Xtrix

If that's false then dreams must be real.

Real is decided by humans. Truth is not. The decision to live according to reality or truth is a big one indeed.

...so you are not trying to perform some sort of Bayesian calculation?

Then what is it you think you are doing?

Real is decided by humans. — Anthony

Exactly wrong. Real is there regardless of what you decide. As is truth.

I see. Maybe I have "consensus reality" taking up a lot of real estate in my head toward the term "reality."

dreams must be real. — TheMadFool

Your dreams are not real? So you remember dreams you did not have? How could you know this?

...so you are not trying to perform some sort of Bayesian calculation?

Then what is it you think you are doing? — Banno

It's basic probability that I'm doing and doesn't involve Bayes' theorem if that's what you're referring to by "Bayesian calculation".

Maybe I have "consensus reality" taking up a lot of real estate in my head toward the term "reality." — Anthony

It's a common mistake. A consensus of belief makes money real, but is irrelevant to gravity.

It's basic probability that I'm doing — TheMadFool

No, it isn't.

I have a bag of marbles, two of which are real and one of which is not real...

What are the chances of my pulling out the unreal marble?

Says who? Why should we start with the assumption that "reality" means anything that "exists" independently of our "minds"?
— Xtrix

If that's false then dreams must be real. — TheMadFool

Begging the question. Dreams are real, in my view. They're just as much part of the world as anything else -- different than waking life, but certainly still there.

I think we should move on from Descartes.

different than waking life, but certainly still there — Xtrix

It's different, right? Falling in a dream leaves no cuts and bruises.

No, it isn't.

I have a bag of marbles, two of which are real and one of which is not real...

What are the chances of my pulling out the unreal marble? — Banno

This is basic probability. Probability of pulling out the unreal marble = 1/3

I think "real" is very close in definition to "most-common". — Bird-Up

No, it isn't. 99 people seeing a ghost does not make the ghost real. Reality is not a popularity contest.

And see the mess that the notion has made here - a hotchpotch of misguided number crunching that gets nowhere.

No, the analysis engendered by your post is fraught with errors. See the alternative presented by . and myself. Or alternately, the discussion of reality given by and . Either will be more productive than further torturing statistics.

Probability of pulling out the unreal marble = 1/3 — TheMadFool

:rofl:

Falling in a dream leaves no cuts and bruises. — TheMadFool

You've never dreamed you had a fall, and in that dream found yourself to have cuts and bruises?

:chin: :brow:

No, it isn't.

I have a bag of marbles, two of which are real and one of which is not real...

What are the chances of my pulling out the unreal marble?
— Banno

This is basic probability. Probability of pulling out the unreal marble = 1/3 — TheMadFool

What if I miscounted the number of unreal marbles in the bag? How can I know for sure how many unreal marbles are really in the bag?

You've never dreamed you had a fall, and in that dream found yourself to have cuts and bruises? — Banno

Never and even if I were to get cut and bruised in my dreams they wouldn't carry over into my waking life. There's a difference between these two worlds.

There's a difference between these two worlds. — TheMadFool

Indeed, there is. This world is real, in contrast to dream worlds.

See

Either will be more productive than further torturing statistics. — Banno

I admit the human element seems to have failed us here.... (But) I don't think it's fair to condemn a whole program based on a single slip-up. — Buck Turgidson

This world is real, in contrast to dream worlds. — Banno

Simply, idealism does communicate with realism. Dreams are ideas...physical reality is obviously influenced, maybe even created by ideas. Why is there something rather than nothing? Ideas I'd say.

Metacognition probably came from a self-awareness preexistent in dream worlds. Whether this is a property limited to humans, who could say.

Indeed, there is. This world is real, in contrast to dream worlds. — Banno

if you're going to bring up the issue of one being something only in contrast to something else then it's alright with me but I remember falling from a great height in my dream without a scratch on my body which is more than I can say about falls I experienced while awake.

What if I miscounted the number of unreal marbles in the bag? How can I know for sure how many unreal marbles are really in the bag? — Banno

That's your fault, not mine. :smile:

@TheMadFool, sometimes language appears to be making sense when it really isn't . Much of philosophy is built on this. Consider, again, Alice's response...

‘It seems very pretty,’ she said when she had finished it, ‘but it’s rather hard to understand!’ (You see she didn’t like to confess, ever to herself, that she couldn’t make it out at all.) ‘Somehow it seems to fill my head with ideas—only I don’t exactly know what they are! However, somebody killed something: that’s clear, at any rate—’

...most of philosophy, summed up in a knutshell.

I was surprised to see you entertaining the discussion.

Simply, idealism does communicate with realism. — Anthony

How are you using "idealism" and "realism" here?

Dreams are ideas...physical reality is obviously influenced, maybe even created by ideas. — Anthony

That strikes me as quite backwards. Dreams are influenced by the physical world.

sometimes language appears to be making sense when it really isn't . Much of philosophy is built on this. Consider, again, Alice's response...

‘It seems very pretty,’ she said when she had finished it, ‘but it’s rather hard to understand!’ (You see she didn’t like to confess, ever to herself, that she couldn’t make it out at all.) ‘Somehow it seems to fill my head with ideas—only I don’t exactly know what they are! However, somebody killed something: that’s clear, at any rate—’

...most of philosophy, summed up in a knutshell. — Banno

Your reliance on Wittgenstein's philosophy is to a fault.

Well, it might help the mad fool out of the fly trap...

But only if he wants out.