Antifa as a movement is militant and they have assaulted journalists, Trump supporters, and burned down and looted businesses — BitconnectCarlos

So would you agree that, as a whole, the US police are a militant, murderous white supremacist organisation? Like Antifa, the police are not a centrally organised body. Like Antifa, the principles they nominally stand for are not manifest in the crimes of a small number of individuals.

Do Antifa principally assault Trump supporters? Or do they principally protest fascism?

I think the harm Trump supporters do makes a good case for interpreting the assault of them as self-defence. Joke. But still...

Friendly reminder that as of July this year, right-wing murderers have killed 300+ victims in the last quarter decade, while those professing anti-fascist stances have have killed literally no one. Not sure how the last couple of months have affected those numbers. Basically anyone whining about people who are anti-fascist but who have nothing to say about right-wing violence is a fuckstick whose opinion is less than worthless.

This to say nothing of the thousands of extra-judicial murders carried out by agents of the state - i.e. police - whom 'small government' types rush out to boot-lick.

Here's to more antifa actions, everywhere, all the time.

The reason I'm more skeptical of antifa is that the far left operates with a different definition of "fascism" than the rest of the country. They'll call Ben Shapiro a fascist. They'll call mainstream right-wing thinkers fascists - and now consider that they openly advocate for violence against the fascists.

Basically anyone whining about people who are anti-fascist but who have nothing to say about right-wing violence is a fuckstick whose opinion is less than worthless. — StreetlightX

This reminds me of people who sidetrack discussions about race or gender with something like "oh but what about unattractive white men? my friend has a big mole on his face etc. etc."

Ah, there's one now.

Friendly reminder that as of July this year, right-wing murderers have killed 300+ victims in the last quarter decade, while those professing anti-fascist stances have have killed literally no one. Not sure how the last couple of months have affected those numbers. Basically anyone whining about people who are anti-fascist but who have nothing to say about right-wing violence is a fuckstick whose opinion is less than worthless.

This to say nothing of the thousands of extra-judicial murders carried out by agents of the state - i.e. police - whom 'small government' types rush out to boot-lick.

Here's to more antifa actions, everywhere, all the time. — StreetlightX

Fucking seconded!

To my way of thinking, any move toward "herd immunity," by this administration, such as limiting somehow vaccine access in any way, or any other active or passive step in that direction, amounts to a declaration of war against the persons jointly and severally living in the US. — tim wood

I think what the president was talking about is "herd mentality", not "herd immunity". Herd mentality is what he believes is his best chance at getting reelected so he will promote this in any way he can.

\ Thank you for the attention, gentleman. I think you both to some degree missed the point. The question is, is it plausible that Trump is the sufficient account for what his administration has done, is doing? Is he the idea man? Does he appear to be the man who could be of such consistent and directed malevolence? And what he seems to be against is everything American. Why against the scientists? Why against CDC? Why against NOAA? And why, really, the USPS?

That kind of all-comprehending hostility, it seems to me, can only come from outside the system, and Trump seems to me to be very much within the system. Or, in sum, either he runs himself or someone else runs him. Given who and what (and how) Trump seems to be, against all that he's done, which makes more sense? That he's his own evil genius all by himself seems to me very unlikely. What's your account - the Koch brothers?

Point!

This. :up:

Those who complain about anti-fascists are fascists and fuck them.

They'll call mainstream right-wing thinkers fascists - and now consider that they openly advocate for violence against the fascists. — BitconnectCarlos

Again, the police openly commit acts of violence against black people and yet, as we've seen, you'd refrain from condemning them. But someone in the internet age calls someone a fascist and that's an enemy worth having. Am I being unfair?

Those who complain about anti-fascists are fascists and fuck them. — Baden

Quite! :victory:

Given who and what (and how) Trump seems to be, against all that he's done, which makes more sense? That he's his own evil genius all by himself seems to me very unlikely. — tim wood

Obviously Trump isn't operating in a vacuum, as a one man administration or political party. That's not the issue you originally raised however; you stated that Russia is the likely culprit behind the Trump administration, that it comes from "outside the system", which is simply a ludicrous fantasy that grossly overestimates the power that Russia has over worldly affairs. In fact there are very clear explanations that are to be found within the American political system. For example, the USPS has been bleeding money for nearly 15 years thanks to an insane bi-partisan Congressional act that require the postal service to prefund retired employee's health benefits up to 2056, something no other business entity, private or public, has to do. We are now simply seeing the capitalist effort of privatizing the USPS come to fruition. There is no need to look towards Russia as an explanation. The call is coming from inside the house. Why is Trump "against the scientists"? He has said so repeatedly that he did not want panic to disrupt the stock market because that's where his wealth and his rich friend's wealth are tied up in.

The actions of his administration can be explained by their material interests, their complete callousness towards American citizens, especially towards blue states, and their desire to maintain power at the expense of any sort of norms, mores, or decency, the latter of which is particularly indigestible for centrists and liberals who still believe that we are still bound together by some invisible code of decency and political norms, which the GOP has shed ages ago.

Hence my analogy with qanon. It's a deranged political theory that ignores substantive facts and materialistic explanations in favor of taking something basically true (Russian election interference and pedophilia) and transforming it into an all-encompassing fantasy narrative and we get psychotic answers to the question: Why is Trump destroying the USPS? It's because Putin has his pee-tape or is it because Trump needs to do it to take down a global pedophile ring.

G'damn liberals are stupid.

you stated that Russia is the likely culprit behind the Trump administration, — Maw

I think it likely that Trump was corrupted by Russia a long time ago - more precisely, Trump himself has always been corrupt, But, either he was or he was not, all or nothing. Given the history such as is known, likely that he was. And they're apparently good at this and are not going to misplay him but rather get what they can, as much as they can.

Or not. but do we agree it's not him alone? You wrote:

The actions of his administration can be explained by their material interests.... — Maw

And my question, who are the people that are the they? His cabinet? Mike Pence? Bannon? Fox News? Mitchell? And I see a difference between Mitchell and Trump: I think Mitchell rows his own boat and I do not think Trump does, or can.

Or, if you'd like a real conspiracy theory, it's Melania. She's a soviet-era Czech spy. And she now spends her time reflecting on just how much she's done and sacrificed for her country.

Nonsense(?) aside, I do not think Trump managed to create this mess by himself. I doubt if he even realizes the scope and significance of what's happening. You suggest a vague "they," but that won't do.

G'damn liberals are stupid. — StreetlightX

I hope you did not spill too much beer typing - got your bib on tight, and all.

Ah, there's one now.

Dude read what I fucking wrote how is this difficult

Very interesting. Expect Romney and the Lincoln Project neocons to agree. Just like impeachment, the RINOs will stick together to the very last. Only the uniparty benefits.

This is what I took you to be asking.

I don't know the answer. Koch Bros and Robert Mercer have been cited as interconnections of "American Capital," and Craig Unger's book, House of Trump, House of Putin, makes a compelling case for overlapping circles with Russian interests (but I only read half the book and it didn't, so far as I can tell, touch on the specific question of election meddling).

Jane Mayer's book, Dark Money has some interesting notes on the Koch Bros, and the documentary, Trumping Democracy, has some interesting notes on Mercer and Cambridge Analytica.

Bannon was involved with CA and Breitbart, and now appears associated with the conspiratorial-seeming, "The Epoch Times." Bannon is also a former Goldman Sachs man. Goldman Sachs appears to have had a heavy presence in the past three or four administrations.

Also, the Council on National Policy (I think) has been cited as another circle of influence (I'm forgetting where I read this, though - Edit: I think this was in Mayer's book too) while other connections can be found to think tanks like the American Enterprise Institute (DeVos, for example).

So for me these may point to the general nexus of ideology and financial interests one can suppose have had an influence on his administration. Pompeo hails from some circles overlapping with Koch interests as well, and Tillerson was an oil guy.

Again, the police openly commit acts of violence against black people and yet, as we've seen, you'd refrain from condemning them. But someone in the internet age calls someone a fascist and that's an enemy worth having. Am I being unfair? — Kenosha Kid

I condemn the policemen/women who commit egregious murder, but it's important we get the facts first before rushing to judgment every time someone is shot. Each case has its own facts. If the officer has committed an offense then of course we should punish them. Policemen have killed white men as well, you just don't hear about it because nobody cares especially if these white men are poor or mentally disabled.

His haters are getting desperate.

A package containing the poison ricin and addressed to President Donald Trump was intercepted by law enforcement earlier this week, according to two law enforcement officials.

Two tests were done to confirm the presence of ricin. All mail for the White House is sorted and screened at an offsite facility before reaching the White House.

The FBI and Secret Service are investigating the matter.

A package containing the poison ricin and addressed to Trump intercepted by law enforcement

I condemn the policemen/women who commit egregious murder, but it's important we get the facts first before rushing to judgment every time someone is shot. Each case has its own facts. If the officer has committed an offense then of course we should punish them. Policemen have killed white men as well, you just don't hear about it because nobody cares especially if these white men are poor or mentally disabled. — BitconnectCarlos

And yet there are a hundred thousand instances of anti-fascists protesting fascism, but we should judge them on the few instances of them assaulting -- not killing, just pissing off -- bad people. That's your hypocrisy, and what it says is loud, clear, and in no way good.

a) Antifa has killed. Does the name Michael Reinoehl ring a bell? Earlier there was a terror attack that was stopped.

b) Most importantly where is the condemnation from antifa for these acts? Answer: There is none. Show me where antifa apologizes. Jesus Christ, look to Streetlight who's probably antifa himself. I don't agree with the man but at least he's honest and he follows his beliefs through to the logic conclusions. Ask any antifa protester whether they feel bad for dead cops. They're not going to feel bad. ACAB. You don't get it. If all antifa is about is "fighting fascism" then all of America - myself and NOS too - should join. Come on.

Jesus Christ, look to Streetlight who's probably antifa himself. — BitconnectCarlos

Could be he’s pro-fascist and speaks ill of capital as an excuse so that he can wear all black attire. So vain.

Does the name Michael Reinoehl ring a bell? — BitconnectCarlos

An anti-fascist shot dead by police again?

Because he killed Aaron Danielson and then drew a gun on police when they tried to arrest him?

Could be he’s pro-fascist and speaks ill of capital as an excuse so that he can wear all black attire. So vain. — praxis

Pro-fascist, anti-fascist.... both love the color black and silencing opposition. Horseshoe theory at it's finest.

but it's important we get the facts first before rushing to judgment every time someone is shot. Each case has its own facts. If the officer has committed an offense then of course we should punish them. — BitconnectCarlos

I'm far more liberal than even the most liberal people on this forum and I agree with this. There are damaged people in the world who are exceedingly dangerous because of their damage. This damage is not their fault, but they are dangerous because of it nonetheless. The recent cases we have seen are examples of the police abusing their power and flat out murdering people. This is not acceptable and cannot be allowed to stand if civil freedom is to survive against the state's monopoly on violence. Those who wield this power should always be held to a very high burden of proof. Having the right to violence is the greatest social responsibility there could ever be.

And yet there are a hundred thousand instances of anti-fascists protesting fascism, but we should judge them on the few instances of them assaulting -- not killing, just pissing off -- bad people. That's your hypocrisy, and what it says is loud, clear, and in no way good.

As far as I can tell the so-called “fascism” they are protesting against doesn’t exist beyond their own skulls. What fascism? But while they protest the figments of their fantasies, they arbitrarily disrupt the lives and destroy the property of innocent people, none of whom meet their absurd criteria of “fascist”. In other words, this is an unjust and violent movement worthy of contempt.

Because he killed Aaron Danielson and then drew a gun on police when they tried to arrest him? — BitconnectCarlos

Was this based on due process? I'm joking. Fascism doesn't do due process. Allow me to rephrase. Was this based on the testimony of people who murder black people?

So just to be clear, thousands of black people murdered by police for decades is a few bad eggs who have to answer for themselves, but one anti-fascist accused of a crime by the same police who murdered him makes the entire organisation murderous? This is still the same question, although I guess you are answering it implicitly.

As far as I can tell the so-called “fascism” they are protesting against doesn’t exist beyond their own skulls — NOS4A2

All right-wing nutters agree with this.

In other words, this is an unjust and violent movement worthy of contempt. — NOS4A2

American police, you mean?