No no, I quite like people like you dwelling in your ignorance and hypocrisy in public - the instructive lesson is you, my darling.

John McWhorter lays out what it is your dealing with in this topic, and why you are wasting your time trying to discuss the issue with them. Everything you say is going through a religious filter of trigger words and agenda driven placeholder words. Self righteousness is a powerful inoculation against different (and therefore opposing, under this cultish ideology) points of view.

Would you agree with this statement: Although the stated goals and history of the antifa movement are noble, in recent times there has been some disturbing footage involving seemingly unprovoked assaults on the innocent including business owners and journalists. While fighting fascism is a noble goal, we encourage the antifa movement to show a little more constraint but also to continue to maintain vigilance in regard to fascism.

no i characterise them as violent based on their beliefs and also actions. antifa is more of an ideology than an organized group. it's the belief that we ought to be quick to be use violence if "fascists" are active because their very presence is a threat. they are very openly quick to violence. no they don't have a giant death count but neither did hitler's brownshirts in the early 30s. would you even consider the brownshirts a violent group before they killed anyone? or was it fine because they were just assaulting some people and doing some marching and chanting? — BitconnectCarlos

Not really a good comparison. The brownshits were assaulting jews, gays, the disabled, Jehovah's witnesses and sympathizer of those demographics, plus others, whom they went on to kill in their millions. 6 million jews and 5 million of those other demographics were killed across nazi controlled Europe.

Antifa are assaulting people who ideologically align with the Brownshits, the right wing extremists would and do target those same demographics and they have a death count in the united states. The fact that their have only been assaults on the Antifa side and no killings just demonstrates restraint on their part and a desire for the fascists to change their ways rather than just outright condemning them as evil and killing them. The brownshits condemned their victims as evil and used that to justify their brutality. Lets not forget that the brownshits practiced voter intimidation during Hitlers rise to power which was a clear attack on democracy and already there are news stories of attempts by right wingers to intimidate early voters at the polls. Maybe when fascist extremists show up at polling sites with guns you will understand.

Changing the meaning of Anti-fascism to fascism for fascists doesn't really make much sense. It just sounds like you're saying "It's fascism to say people can't be fascists.

The Brownshits = Prejudicial and offensive tactics toward groups that are now deemed protected.

Antifa = preemptive defensive tactics used to protect the demographics the brownshits would have us enslave/murder.

So the whole "both as bad as each other" narrative you are trying to push doesn't really make much sense as the very reasons and motivations behind the existence are entirely different. To put it simply, if there were no Fascists, there would be no Antifa. If there were no Antifa, we would still have fascists.

If you are violent towards others, you can hardly blame others for responding and reacting violently as a means of self defense. Violence begets Violence. If your priorities are to reduce violence then your focus should be on Fascists, not Antifa. If your priorities are to empower fascists by ignoring their violence in favour of coming down on the people who are defending themselves and others from this very violence, then you are a fascist and also have a violent ideology.

no, I don't. And neither does the FBI worry about Antifa violence. Which journalists are we talking about? I just linked you an expose on Ngo being a fraud and not a journalist.

As to the fires. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/22/who-caused-violence-protests-its-not-antifa/

Not really a good comparison. The brownshits were assaulting jews, gays, the disabled, Jehovah's witnesses and sympathizer of those demographics, plus others, whom they went on to kill in their millions. 6 million jews and 5 million of those other demographics were killed across nazi controlled Europe. — MSC

Sorry for the brief answer but I'm arguing against 4 other people here... I was referencing the brown shirts in the early 30s, before the wide scale assaults/killings started. My point was that a movement can be violent - as the brownshirts were - before racking up a high body count. This was in response to one of Kenosha's points earlier.

John McWhorter lays out what it is your dealing with in this topic, and why you are wasting your time trying to discuss the issue with them. — DingoJones

It's just a slow sunday morning here. Me and Streelight know we're never going to change each other's minds, it can just be fun to get it out there. With Benkei there is a chance of finding some common ground so who knows.

So if Andy Ngo is a fraud and not a journalist do you support initiating mob violence against him? The damage was fairly serious by the way, he did suffer brain damage. You can watch it all on youtube.

Living languages are fluid. It's ok if people make it up as they go.

What's clear is that Antifa is presently impotent, so understanding it would be a rambling psychological quest.

There isn’t much to understand. Antifa is wholly composed of reprobates role-playing their protest fantasies in the public square, virtue-signalling into tyranny.

Antifa terrifies people because they do the exact opposite of virtue signalling. They kick in the heads of Nazis and Nazi cunt sympathizers like NOS, so they need to be painted in as bad a light as possible. It's always the effective ones whom the campaign to smear ratchets up the highest.

Also Andy Ngo already had brain damage, he just found a convenient excuse for it. It would be good if he were to drop dead tomorrow. The world would be a better place.

Maybe when fascist extremists show up at polling sites with guns you will understand. — MSC

Or maybe not. Trump has vocalised an intent to close polling stations in Democratic demographics to stop people voting, has incited his own voters to commit voting fraud by voting twice (once at a polling station, once by post), and has repeatedly stated an intent to stay in power beyond two terms. I don't think he needs guns, nor do I think his voters would care if he used them, since the above doesn't phase them at all.

the moment dozens of them begin assaulting gay minority journalists (see the andy ngo assault) and random business owners as they did in Portland you're just shit. — BitconnectCarlos

Change 'gay' to 'black' and 'Portland' to 'Tulsa', see if you still feel the same way.

Although the stated goals and history of the antifa movement are noble, in recent times there has been some disturbing footage involving seemingly unprovoked assaults on the innocent including business owners and journalists. While fighting fascism is a noble goal, we encourage the antifa movement to show a little more constraint but also to continue to maintain vigilance in regard to fascism. — BitconnectCarlos

This is almost what the Antifa manual says. It warns against accepting people who are drawn to it for violence, against allowing violence to be a member's MO, but permits confrontation and self-defence. They seem as aware of opportunistic thugs as anyone. If the police would take this stand with actual racist killers, it would be a good and welcome start.

Change 'gay' to 'black' and 'Portland' to 'Tulsa', see if you still feel the same way. — Kenosha Kid

If you're talking about the Tulsa massacre of 1921 of course that was awful. The interesting thing is I'm fine condemning right wing violence, but with you guys I've noticed you're not willing to condemn any left wing violence so I usually just nope out after realizing that.

This is almost what the Antifa manual says. It warns against accepting people who are drawn to it for violence, against allowing violence to be a member's MO, but permits confrontation and self-defence. They seem as aware of opportunistic thugs as anyone. — Kenosha Kid

Great so lets get back to that.

John McWhorter lays out what it is your dealing with in this topic, and why you are wasting your time trying to discuss the issue with them. Everything you say is going through a religious filter of trigger words and agenda driven placeholder words. Self righteousness is a powerful inoculation against different (and therefore opposing, under this cultish ideology) points of view. — DingoJones

At a glance, his point is simple and easy to appreciate, but rather ironic that he exaggerates the issue to the unrealistic extent of religious devotion.

The interesting thing is I'm fine condemning right wing violence, but with you guys I've noticed you're not willing to condemn any left wing violence — BitconnectCarlos

I don't think you are. Your stated view is that the police who vet, recruit, train and arm the police who enjoy positions of authority over people have no responsibility for the lethal racists they unleash.

I am anti-violence as a rule, but let's say there's a film in which every day a bunch of white thugs beat a black kid coming home from school. Sometimes to death. The parents tell the police every day and the police sometimes shoot the father for invented reasons. Then one day these thugs follow their next target around a corner only to find a posse from all walks of life ready to beat the shit out of them. You're the guy in the theatre standing up shouting 'They shouldn't be allowed!' having sat silently through two hours of violence against blacks. I'm the guy saying, 'This should never have been thought necessary'. So, yes, after centuries of violence by whites against blacks, I'm less disturbed or surprised that decent people have accepted that occasionally there will be fisticuffs than I am by the dude who stood up and ranted at the end of the movie.

So I'm afraid you've got it back to front. What pisses us off is not that left-wingers aren't immune to criticism for violence. What pisses us off is that, after everything that's happened, after every crime that the right wing has perpetrated, defended, or remained silent on from slavery to George Floyd, you cry 'no fair' when a fascist gets so much as a punch in the teeth for a fight he almost certainly started. It's a bully's mentality.

Sorry for the brief answer but I'm arguing against 4 other people here... I was referencing the brown shirts in the early 30s, before the wide scale assaults/killings started. My point was that a movement can be violent - as the brownshirts were - before racking up a high body count. This was in response to one of Kenosha's points earlier. — BitconnectCarlos

It's all good, we've all been there where we get overwhelmed with engaging with multiple people. My Push the button post yesterday did that to me too. Reply at your leisure and take your time. I'm not going to rush you.

There isn’t much to understand. Antifa is wholly composed of reprobates role-playing their protest fantasies in the public square, virtue-signalling into tyranny. — NOS4A2

That's basically what Trotsky was until the shit hit the fan.

Your stated view is that the police who vet, recruit, train and arm the police who enjoy positions of authority over people have no responsibility for the lethal racists they unleash. — Kenosha Kid

I don't know Kenosha, can you look at someone and determine if they're a racist? If someone is actively racist then of course we should get rid of them and if we don't then that's an institutional failure but racism in practice isn't black and white. It's not just a white cop on black victim problem either. Black cops shoot black people at around the same rate.

You're the guy in the theatre standing up shouting 'They shouldn't be allowed!' having sat silently through two hours of violence against blacks. — Kenosha Kid

If someone is committing violence against you you always have the right to stand up for yourself. What you can't do is if one cop commits a horrible offense that he deserves to go to jail for tothen target every cop and start shooting cops indiscriminately. That's not how justice works. Target the actual individuals.

What pisses us off is that, after everything that's happened, after every crime that the right wing has perpetrated, defended, or remained silent on from slavery to George Floyd, you cry 'no fair' when a fascist gets so much as a punch in the teeth — Kenosha Kid

Just curious, are you black? This seems like a larger criticism towards white people. I don't get it. Do you want white people to apologize for slavery? Jim Crowe?

you cry 'no fair' when a fascist gets so much as a punch in the teeth — Kenosha Kid

seems like a larger criticism towards white people. — BitconnectCarlos

Huh. Nice spontaneous word association.

Nice identity politics too.

See - you're the lesson. You just speak, and all this hilarious shit comes tumbling out.

That's basically what Trotsky was until the shit hit the fan.

Ha. Trotsky was in a much different context. The communists I have in mind require the products of capitalist innovation to spread their gospel, and have self-exiled in their mother’s basement.

There isn't going to be an American Revolution because we're going to be too busy annexing Canada due to climate change. You'll get to see that American fascism close up.

I don't know Kenosha, can you look at someone and determine if they're a racist? — BitconnectCarlos

Yes, to an extent. It's called psychological vetting.

If someone is actively racist then of course we should get rid of them and if we don't then that's an institutional failure — BitconnectCarlos

There is an extensive history of protectionism in the police, as well as a stubborn refusal to allow reform. That is not a failure, that is an oppositely-directed success.

Black cops shoot black people at around the same rate. — BitconnectCarlos

Are you seriously going to rest your argument on an inability to differentiate between a lawful killing and murder? How many black people have been shot in the back by black police officers who then hide a gun on their victim? How many black people have been choked to death by black police officers? If you're excusing every George Floyd on the basis of black officers inevitably sharing a quota of lawful killings, that would be a new low.

What you can't do is if one cop commits a horrible offense that he deserves to go to jail for tothen target every cop and start shooting cops indiscriminately. — BitconnectCarlos

And who the hell advocates this? Are you claiming this is Antifa's MO now?

Just curious, are you black? — BitconnectCarlos

Is it difficult to imagine white people not being more okay with racist violence than with anti-fascism?

This seems like a larger criticism towards white people. I don't get it. Do you want white people to apologize for slavery? Jim Crowe? — BitconnectCarlos

Now that *is* a straw man, though not an unfamiliar one. I've heard racists use this a lot, like they're excused for pretending bad shit never happened. No, I don't expect white people to feel guilty for their ancestors' crimes; I just expect them to not perpetuate them. My point was that this violence has been going on for a very, very long time, and yet people like you act like the left have just picked a fight for no reason.

There isn't going to be an American Revolution because we're going to be too busy annexing Canada due to climate change. You'll get to see that American fascism close up.

I can’t wait. A warmer climate is sure to raise the value on my property, and I wouldn’t mind a first and second amendment.

So the whole "both as bad as each other" narrative you are trying to push doesn't really make much sense as the very reasons and motivations behind the existence are entirely different. To put it simply, if there were no Fascists, there would be no Antifa. If there were no Antifa, we would still have fascists. — MSC

I don't care as much about an organization's stated, ideological goals as I care about their actual actions. We've seen journalists assaulted, business owners harassed, businesses looted and burned. We have seen murders as well, Aaron Danielson for instance. To document all of these instances would be an awful lot of work, and often when they are documented the journalists who document them are just smeared as frauds or fascists themselves, so it's often not really worth talking about.

I think many of these antifascists operate under the premise that the American system is rotten to it's very core and since it can't be reasonably reformed it needs to be destroyed and rebuilt. So the violence follows from this and there's no discussion to be had. If you're one of the believers in this premise then I don't see our discussion going very far.

It will be poor Americans and Canadians who'll end up homeless. Doesn't that make you sad?

And you'll probably say the same about the hundreds of thousands of COVID deaths I'm sure.

It makes no sense to me to dream up a dystopian future only to feel sorrow or fear in what I just created. I’ll let you know how I feel if your fortune-telling comes to fruition.

And you'll probably say the same about the hundreds of thousands of COVID deaths I'm sure.

Over a million people die of tuberculosis each year with no peep from the usual suspects, probably because you cannot use it as a political football.

You're right. It's not like those 200K deaths are easily preventable if not for the intentional downplaying of certain politicians...

Since you mentioned political footballs, if you want to get a better idea of what 200K deaths means, it's around 50,000 Benghazis.

did you read the article from rolling stone? Ngo goes out of his way to provoke these sort of situations and isn't a journalist. Your claim was about journalists and the one example you gave isn't one.

Ngo claimed a subarachnoid hemorrhage, which is total bullshit as he was up and about the day after. An SAH requires several days (up to 2 weeks) of monitoring at a hospital.

The guy that hit him committed a crime but it was exactly what Ngo wanted. Precisely because he has an agenda. He has been known to dox a minor.

So really, what journalists are we taking about?

The fires I already referred to with a WaPo article that illustrated there's no Antifa behind the fires during BLM protests or the forest fires for that matter.

Until recently, Antifa wasn't linked to any murders in 25 years. We now have one. The far eight committed 329 murders in the same time period.

Antifa violence and fear thereof are simply not grounded in reality. What you need to be afraid of is white supremacists, various types of extreme nationalists and retards linked to the boogaloo nonsense.

Since you mentioned political footballs, if you want to get a better idea of what 200K deaths means, it's around 50,000 Benghazis. — Mr Bee

:razz: good one

Right, because a mob of murderous rioters is akin to a global pandemic. No more foolish comparison has been made, except for the similar one about 9/11.