Well, I find philosophy, in and of itself, pretty esoteric. Things you see discussed in philosophy and its allied subjects logic and math are either possessed of a deepness and profundity or are entirely devoid of these attributes and both states are of great interest to anyone seeking truth in one form or another. Might I add that despite the immense volumes written on philosophical matters it only takes a little bit of investigative effort to come to the realization that the foundations of philosophy are littered with unsolved, and probably unsolvable ( :sad: ) puzzles.

I do agree with you that philosophy is esoteric in itself and it does contain many puzzles.
I will continue walking in the mazes of my soapbox opera of a life and maybe you will write your futuristic novel. At some point I want to write a novel, possibly of the steampunk genre.
Perhaps the esoteric matter of philosophy can be expressed better in fiction and a lot of philosophers have written fiction as well as non fiction.

I wouldn't say that, because duty implies conflict and division. But in this field, if one does not live according to one's understanding, then one hasn't really understood.

That's not how I was using the word duty, perhaps I should have said ought to.

Anyway, do you cross the road to help an old lady struggling with her shopping?

My point is that there are a large number of people who have the (shall I say) wisdom to know how humanity should move forward in a constructive way. Meanwhile humanity is going to hell in a hand cart under the direction, of despots, clowns and idiots. Should these wise folk lift a finger, or just sit there and descend into hell with the rest of them?

Should these wise folk lift a finger, or just sit there and descend into hell with the rest of them? — Punshhh

Descend into hell, obviously. One has to relate to people where they are, not where one wishes them to be. Every ascended master agrees with this, from Lao Tzu to Jesus.

"we're dooomed" as said by Frazer in Dad's army.

I would take issue with your conclusion. On the assumption that these ascended masters are really ascended, which is implied in your comment (unless you are engaging in parody, which is fine with me). Then, one is also accepting a cosmogeny of evolving souls etc etc. I know that the Eastern prophets come across as indifferent to the plight of the ecosystem and by implication the race of humanity in favour of personal enlightenment. I would suggest that this is a naive presumption. Also that Jesus did act in the world and ask people to reform society and by implication to intervene in the management of humanity. Jesus is asking us to lift a finger, to cross the road to help that old lady.

Yes,I would agree that Jesus and other masters, even if the idea of ascension is a myth, would certainly wish to help others as compassion was a central message of these teachings.

I would take issue with your conclusion. — Punshhh

Yes, it is an unpopular message, and always has been.

Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. — Matthew16:24

In the pursuit of learning, every day something is acquired.
In the pursuit of Tao, every day something is dropped.

Less and less is done
Until non-action is achieved.
When nothing is done, nothing is left undone.

The world is ruled by letting things take their course.
It cannot be ruled by interfering. — Tao Te Ching 48

Man cannot come to it through any organization, through any creed, through any dogma, priest or ritual, not through any philosophical knowledge or psychological technique. He has to find it through the mirror of relationship, through the understanding of the contents of his own mind, through observation and not through intellectual analysis or introspective dissection. — Krishnamurti

Everyone wants to go up, and no one wants to go down.

Man cannot come to it through any organization, through any creed, through any dogma, priest or ritual, not through any philosophical knowledge or psychological technique. He has to find it through the mirror of relationship, through the understanding of the contents of his own mind, through observation and not through intellectual analysis or introspective dissection. — Krishnamurti

Thanks for posting this, a fun trip down memory lane for me. Since reading his words so many times so long ago, I've come to this...

Krishnamurti says, "Man can not come to it this way or that, he has to find it through observation etc".

Krishnamurti is implying that there is some "it" we can have if we go about things the right way. Krishnamurti is offering yet another becoming trip. If we do this, we can get that. And the "it" that we could supposedly get it is clouded in glamorous mystery, making it even more appealing, because now we can read whatever we want in to "it".

Our interest in such becoming trips is a response to a psychic hunger. We feel empty, and so seek to fill the emptiness with something, and glamorous becoming trips are an appealing menu item.

A key understanding for me is that this hunger doesn't arise in the content of thought, and so it can't be solved through philosophy.

The hunger instead arises from the medium of thought itself. Thought conceptually divides everything it touches, and so whatever our philosophy might be thought creates up and down, good and bad, inferior and superior, right and wrong, the past and the future etc, and the dance between all these dualities generates conflict, and the feeling of emptiness.

We try to think our way out of the emptiness, but that just adds more fuel on the fire. We convert from this philosophy to that to something else in the hopes of finding the right collection of concepts which will deliver us from the emptiness, but every philosophy we find is made of thought just like all the others so the emptiness and need for a becoming trip is never resolved.

If it's true that the hunger we feel arises from the medium of thought itself, that is very good news, as that suggests simple practical solutions which are readily available to just about anybody.

But the solutions to psychic hunger aren't perfect or permanent. When we're physically hungry we eat something. And then we have to eat again in a few hours. This goes on our entire life, the need to eat never ends. And so addressing physical hunger, and psychic hunger, isn't a glamorous business but instead just routine maintenance of a bodily function.

Because the readily available solution isn't glamorous, philosophers will likely lose all interest and continue on their becoming trips, to where they already are.

Do you think we need to do something in the meantime, or just 'wait patiently'? Does studying help? — unenlightened

That is literally the question I asked myself upon entering this website.

Yes, it is an unpopular message, and always has been.

But what you imply is the message is not infact the message. You are confusing the teaching that in order to progress towards personal enlightenmet one must withdraw from the world and find the answer/route internally. With the idea that these ascended prophets have a disregard, or are indifferent to the plight of humanity as a whole. The later does not follow from the former.

When Jesus states that in order to go with him, one should deny himself, he is referring to the day to day concerns of that individual within the society at large and his internal narrative and concerns. This is what he is asking the disciple to deny, to leave behind. In favour of the cross of redemption. The cross is a complex symbol to unravel, but as it is used here, it is referred to as the burden of the acceptance of the human condition and the suffering entailed in the relinquishing of that by a human, in real time, within a real cultural setting and all that that entails (by implication, that society would inevitably crucify, or perform some equivalent act, on such a person).

Everyone wants to go up, and no one wants to go down.

But if humanity is left to go down, the majority will be going down. It seems inefficient to me, when just one person lifting a finger could reverse this.

But the solutions to psychic hunger aren't perfect or permanent. When we're physically hungry we eat something. And then we have to eat again in a few hours. This goes on our entire life, the need to eat never ends. And so addressing physical hunger, and psychic hunger, isn't a glamorous business but instead just routine maintenance of a bodily function.

Because the readily available solution isn't glamorous, philosophers will likely lose all interest and continue on their becoming trips, to where they already are.

Nicely put. I would add the idea that it's not just the thinking that causes the psychic hunger in this analogy, but the development of an ego within the personality of the person. This ego requires nourishment as well and tying to the post (discipline) of a reasonable and humble being.

Yes,I would agree that Jesus and other masters, even if the idea of ascension is a myth, would certainly wish to help others as compassion was a central message of these teachings.

Yes, compassion for all beings. Bhuddists strive not to harm any other being, indeed, to help, where they can. In Hinduism, each person seeks to teach and/or spread compassion and wisdom. In Christianity, the redemption, or saving of humanity is more explicit. This implies the helping, the guidance of our fellow man. To bring forth heaven on Earth.

You are confusing the teaching that in order to progress towards personal enlightenmet one must withdraw from the world and find the answer/route internally. — Punshhh

What did I say about withdrawing from the world? I missed it.

Look, if you want to feed the world, or cure a disease or organise a society, that is a practical matter, an externality, and one can operate externally with the intellect, mechanically. You don't need an ascended master to grow corn, you need a combine harvester.

What you need an ascended master for is not to upgrade the combine, but to upgrade the driver.

There is no need for anyone to starve, or to be homeless, or to lack basic medical care or a clean water supply. We could sort all that out for everyone in a year or less. It is a trivial logistical problem of redistributing resources.

What prevents it from happening is greed, and a terrible fear that someone will get something from me for nothing. It's a psychological problem.

What did I say about withdrawing from the world? I missed it.

It is implicit in the instruction given in the quotes from phrophets you have provided.

I am not referring to removing oneself physically from the world. But, intellectually and psychologically. A process of introversion.

We could sort all that out for everyone in a year or less. It is a trivial logistical problem of redistributing resources.

Yes, I agree. Well, are you going to lift a finger, or shall I?

I jest, but seriously, who is going to provide this redistribution in a timely manner? You see, the fortunes of the human race, are a real time event. They are happening here and now at speed. Even if it is just a logistical problem, if the course of human history is to be steered in a constructive direction, it has to be done now in the moment. If there are ascended masters, prophets out there, now, in this moment. Would they just turn a blind eye to our fate,? or would they take an interest, of some kind?

Is the plight of humanity of any importance to these prophets? Or is it an irrelevance, because it is a natural process, or something? These are interesting questions.

I do agree that the basic needs of all are a real time event. I think we are living in one of the most extraordinary times in history. I am sure that there have been pandemics before but the current one is a global one and would probably not have spread almost everywhere if travel was not international as it is today. As we are at such a strange point in time that I have been puzzled about how little link is being made between the present Covid_19 crisis and the eternal philosophical questions.
With regard to Masters we definitely need some prophets to guide us rather than just leave all the decisions to be made by the leaders. Scientists and health professionals are involved in discussions and seem to be regarded as the experts but perhaps philosophers have important ideas too.
On a more speculative level, in the New Age circles there has been an idea that we are progressing from the age of Pisces to Aquarius. This would involve major changes in consciousness over a long transitional period of time, starting with the changes in the 1960s. However, there was a belief that we were moving to ascension consciousness, in which large numbers of people would wake up to greater levels of consciousness. This came with an expectation of some mass catastrophic historical event. 1999 passed without the computers all collapsing, 2012 passed but perhaps the real apocalypse year, which people were no longer expecting, is 2020 and will it lead to major shifts multidimensional awareness?

Is the plight of humanity of any importance to these prophets? Or is it an irrelevance, because it is a natural process, or something? These are interesting questions. — Punshhh

Of course it is of importance. The question is what can one do about it. Humanity has only one problem and that is humanity. Lift humanity's finger to solve the problem of humanity? It turns out that the problem of starvation cannot be solved by producing more because people are greedy and prefer to kill themselves with obesity rather than share their food. Let's both lift our fingers and wag them in admonishment! That'll work. :down:

If it was an external problem, a great leader would solve it, and we wouldn't have to change, but it is an internal problem and a great leader can only make it worse.

Humanity has only one problem and that is humanity.

Yes, that is quite an obstacle. Which is why I said that they might not have an interest, because it is humanity's problem, that they let things take their course.

but it is an internal problem and a great leader can only make it worse.

I don't think you can conclude this. The main problem, at the moment is not things like feeding the poor etc. But our systems of political control and the quality of the people in those roles are more of a problem. Anyway, things don't have to be this way and people might initiate change in a more constructive direction, so if the right person gets into the right position they can make considerable changes in the fate of humanity.

I am leading towards the idea of esoteric thinking, which is engendered in the Theosophical movement. The questioning of what might be going on behind the scenes.

do agree with you that philosophy is esoteric in itself and it does contain many puzzles.
I will continue walking in the mazes of my soapbox opera of a life and maybe you will write your futuristic novel. At some point I want to write a novel, possibly of the steampunk genre.
Perhaps the esoteric matter of philosophy can be expressed better in fiction and a lot of philosophers have written fiction as well as non fiction — Jack Cummins

I suggest you type in "problem philosophy" and "paradox" in Google's search box and you'll probably end up with a list that'll keep you busy in the universe's esoteric department for the rest of your life which I hope is going to be blissful and long.

I don't think you can conclude this. The main problem, at the moment is not things like feeding the poor etc. But our systems of political control and the quality of the people in those roles are more of a problem. — Punshhh

Well if you are not hungry, then hunger is not a problem for you. But it is quite a big problem for a lot of people. But the people in leadership roles is a reflection of the nature of humanity. No one can lead without having followers.

Everyone agrees about one thing - "it's not my fault". Unfortunately everyone is wrong about that.

Well if you are not hungry, then hunger is not a problem for you. But it is quite a big problem for a lot of people. But the people in leadership roles is a reflection of the nature of humanity. No one can lead without having followers.

So if Sargent Bilko became president that would be good for the world because he is a reflection of a part of humanity? You are essentially saying that we've got the governance we deserve. Like the president of Belarus for example. Or the German people were crying out for someone like Hitler at the beginning of the 20th Century.

I don't see how anything you are saying is addressing the issue I am raising. Other than trying to say that it is pointless to even try, perhaps.

Everyone agrees about one thing - "it's not my fault". Unfortunately everyone is wrong about that.

Its like we're on a race to the bottom.

I was there in the mid 90's when the ascension tapes came out. It was a heady time. I knew Sandy Stephenson who was the leading light in the New Age movement in the UK at the time, so am familiar with the ideology. The way I view and viewed it was that these people and movements were finding ways to express something they had and were experiencing at the time. There was some exploration of consciousness expansion going on, but I suspect no one really had any deep insights but rather found some way that worked for them.

Personally I took it all with a pinch of skepticism, which I would do with any ideology, as I am only interested in collecting ideas and have mystical approach to the esoteric side, or issues.

As an overview I see that that movement along with other movements, such as the rapid developments in social media and the adoption and development of virtual living in gaming etc as expressions of some kind of consciousness expansion which we are going through at the moment. Unfortunately, it is coinciding with a time of global turmoil in which the integrity of the civilisation we have built up is at risk and the spectre of natures cure of a pandemic has arisen.

Would that I could be a fly on the wall with one of those ascended masters right now. It would be an eye opener, I'm sure.

I do approach most things with scepticism, but I do continue to search and experience. I go to the Festival of Mind, Body and Spirit( now renamed Festival of Wellbeing.
I had a DNA activation (23 strands, as junk DNA is meant to contain hidden untapped potential) about 10 years ago and my own life became far more chaotic shortly afterwards, but that is my mythic truth. I still read all sorts of way out books.
But obviously the current situation with the pandemic and all the turbulence and turmoil created looms in front of us daily.There are no easy answers but we will have to wait and see what this brings for transformation of consciousness. Apart from that we have all the climate change and ecological concerns remain.

If it was an external problem, a great leader would solve it, and we wouldn't have to change, but it is an internal problem and a great leader can only make it worse. — unenlightened

Generally agree with your sentiments. Internal problem, expressing itself externally.

To be a quibbler, there is at least some possibility that some great leader of science might uncover some mechanical solution of sorts to the internal problem. A drug? Gene editing? I have no idea.

The one thing we know for sure from thousands of years of experience is that sitting with the guru under the pear tree isn't a sufficiently scalable solution.

The one thing we know for sure from thousands of years of experience is that sitting with the guru under the pear tree isn't a sufficiently scalable solution.

Yes, I don't disagree with your thoughts, or Unenlightened's thoughts on the intractable nature of the problems humanity is dealing with right now. Or how mysticism, spirituality, or religious ideologies are unsuitable means to run the world. What I'm getting at is that people who have reached some level of peace and wisdom in themselves (which I expect is a fair few), would be able to steer the course of humanity through the coming difficult period reasonably successfully. Were they to be in positions of power. It is not inevitable that we are going to have a collapse of civilisation during the next few decades, but the way we are going, it is looking that way and the big problems we are going to have to deal with have barely begun, as yet.

As to the root of the problem, it is not in over population and starvation as Unenlightened suggested. Although that is something which will need to be managed. It is in our systems of government and the way that developments in society and the media has either corrupted, or hollowed out the institutions. To the extent that only despots, fools and clowns are finding their way into positions of power.

This either has to be corrected somehow, or things are only going to get worse. And I'm sure I don't need to remind you how easily humans turn to conflict and war.

I don't see how anything you are saying is addressing the issue I am raising. — Punshhh

The one thing we know for sure from thousands of years of experience is that sitting with the guru under the pear tree isn't a sufficiently scalable solution. — Hippyhead

One of you externalises the problem, and the other complains that they cannot externalise the solution. No wonder you agree. You are the problem, and only you can be the solution. I'm not going to solve it for you anyway, I'm unenlightened.

I'm unenlightened. — unenlightened

Oh?

Really.

I been double-crossed now
For the very last time and now I'm finally free
I kissed goodbye the howling beast
On the borderline which separated you from me
You'll never know the hurt I suffered
Nor the pain I rise above
And I'll never know the same about you
Your holiness or your kind of love
And it makes me feel so sorry
Idiot wind
Blowing through the buttons of our coats
Blowing through the letters that we wrote
Idiot wind
Blowing through the dust upon our shelves
We're idiots, babe
It's a wonder we can even feed ourselves. — Bob Dylan

"It's a wonder we can even feed ourselves"
- Bob Dylan.

So it's a race to the bottom then. Krishnamurti would be turning in his grave.

Everyone wants to go up, and no one wants to go down. — unenlightened

This is a key part of the message in Plato's Republic. An individual will rise above the cave-dwellers, to see the light, which is the reality behind the illusory world that we all live in. The live-in world is just a reflection of reality. The key point is that the true philosopher will go back down to the cave-dwellers, descend into that hellish world in which they live, to teach them the truth. That is the key aspect of "the philosopher", the sacrificing of oneself for the purpose of enlightening the others. That is not a pleasant task, as the others do not like the truth about their "reality" to be revealed. See what happened to people like Socrates, and Jesus.