For someone that believes in God (a believer), there is an eternal structure to existence (sometimes referred to as essences) — Merkwurdichliebe
There is another type of believer who believes that God relates to each individual on a personal level, and in that capacity stands as judge for each individual. — Merkwurdichliebe
If the believer desires to think and act rightly, he will base his decisions on principle — Merkwurdichliebe
Any morality can be rationalized and justified, hence the nonbeliever only has access to relative morality. — Merkwurdichliebe
thinking or acting only become morally relevant under inspection — Merkwurdichliebe
Whatever the nonbeliever can get away with is fair game. — Merkwurdichliebe
This is to say: no two individuals ever receive fair or equitable judgment...completely rendering "justice" into a relativistic notion. — Merkwurdichliebe
So I think the only thing the powerless ordinary good persons, anywhere on earth, can do is to wish each other be safe (as you did already). — KerimF
Does it matter which notion of God a person finds believable? How about logos and science, does that work? I think logos comes with abolute truth, but there is no holy book for it. — Athena
What if a person is not a believer in a humanized God such as Zeus or the God of Abraham? Might this person also have principles and be virtuous? — Athena
I think the unpleasant problem of which you speak is what democracy is about. We all have a voice. Granted no one is going to pay much attention to me so I have nothing like the power of Trump, but enough ants can eat an elephant. I am planting seeds of thought and I will not be remembered but some of those seeds of thought may sprout and grow and reproduce. That is democracy, rule by reason, not rule by authority over the people.
It is the purpose of humans to think and they will manifest what they think about. It is our duty to the universe to think and speak and move humanity to a greater concsiousness, if we are recognized as a person of authority and power or not. We are part of something much bigger than ourselves.
Chardin said God is asleep in rocks and minerals, waking in plants and animals, to know self in man. This is not a miracle working God with supernatural powers tending to human affairs, blessing some and punishing others. It is universal law and our growing consciousness of it, which in turn manisfest it on earth. We are all a part of this and as we have seen, a powerless child or a powerless Black man can become an international voice for what is good when the time is right. — Athena
Does democracy, reasoning, and science work as the base for decisions on principle? — Athena
I hold a moral is a matter of cause and effect, so it is not exactly up to the individual alone. Our judgment must include the effect of what we say or do and the more expanded our consciousness is the better our judgment will be. — Athena
Our consideration of right and wrong, need include everyone's understanding of it, not just our own.
That is a lovely thought. Therefore, blindly following Hitler would not be moral because blindly obeying authority does involve thinking about it. People, who obey without thought, are being reactionary and may do horribly immoral things, even if they believe it is the will of God, right? — Athena
Whatever the nonbeliever can get away with is fair game. — Merkwurdichliebe
Not true at all, because if the action is not right the effect will be harmful. That is how we determine if something is right or wrong by the effect, and sacrificing animals, offering the gods human hearts, rituals and prayers will not change the effect of what we have done. — Athena
I have a problem with that notion! The consequences of our actions will be the same no matter who takes the action. Hum, are we judging the action or the person taking the action? — Athena
You said well in case the end purpose of one's existence is to serve life in the world as all other non-human living things are created for this same purpose while they are guided by their natural instincts (the preprogramed instructions which are embedded in them by the Creator).
You may wonder now what end purpose could be... other than the one of serving life.
Answering this question is not easy because it depends on one's nature of which he is created.
As a man of reason and science, I am sure that life on earth or elsewhere cannot exist forever, much like our mortal living bodies. So, if the main/crucial reason for which life on earth was created is just to let it progress (move humanity to a greater consciousness), it will result to 'nothing' at the end of times as if the Creator decided to play a game then shut it off... to start another one perhaps :)
I can't go on without talking off topic. It is better to explore, on a separate thread, what the other end purpose could be. — KerimF
I'm not saying all nonbelievers try to get away with shit, I'm saying if one does get away with shit, there will be no greater consequences for him. If getting away with something is thought to be the right thing to do, and it is done, then it does not matter the slightest if it harms another. Of course, if the perpetrator gets caught, then it probably won't seem so right to him anymore. Hence the relativism of morality for the nonbeliever. — Merkwurdichliebe
Even if the consequences of an action (example: stealing) will be the the same despite the particular player involved, for the nonbeliever, anyone who steals cannot and will not be judged the same in every case. For the believer, there is one standard by which everyone is measured, and the judgement that he incurrs, his personal judgment that he can never avoid, is of the utmost importance to himself — Merkwurdichliebe
So what is that common thing that makes something religious, and another thing not religious? — Merkwurdichliebe
It is the capacity for doubt in the believer; that is, if a person does not test his belief with a necessary measure of doubt and examine it through an established criterion in order to determine its viability as actual knowledge, then that belief can be said to be religious. — Merkwurdichliebe
The key is that religious belief is a conviction, impossible to change by any other notion or reasoning. — Merkwurdichliebe
I see what you're saying. In medieval times warlords paid attention to their moral standing in the eyes of their soldiers because if the soldiers became convinced God had abandoned them, the will to fight would wane. The soldiers would fear that they might be fighting against God and so dooming themselves to hell.
So if nothing else, God can be a very powerful aspect of the human psyche. — frank
The key is that religious belief is a conviction, impossible to change by any other notion or reasoning. — Merkwurdichliebe
Ok, sorry, not really meaning offense or trying to start a food fight, nothing personal intended, but this is just rubbish. — Hippyhead
If one's belief in these things is properly dogmatic, then it is a religious belief, and there is a rational justification for basing one's morality on principle. — Merkwurdichliebe
dog·ma
/ˈdôɡmə/
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noun
noun: dogma; plural noun: dogmas
a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.
"the rejection of political dogma" Dictionary
Can I weigh in here? — Athena
Religion is based on mythology not facts that have been validated — Athena
To believe one can know absolute truth and that there is one source of that truth, is just wrong, and those who believe that are absolutely dangerous. — Athena
That's ONE of the things that religion is based on. Here's an example...
Jesus suggested things like "love your neighbor like yourself". That's not a mythology, that's a practical suggestion which one can experiment with and come to one's own conclusions based on one's own experience.
To believe one can know absolute truth and that there is one source of that truth, is just wrong, and those who believe that are absolutely dangerous. — Athena
Generally agree, and would add that such phenomena are not limited to the religious. — Hippyhead
As for "do unto others", that is said in every religion and believing only one religion has God's truth is not a good thing. — Athena
They can't join an atheist philosophy forum to discuss love, because that conversation doesn't happen here. — Hippyhead
Ok, but nobody has to believe in that advice as a matter of faith. Everyone can try it for themselves, do their own experiment, come to their own conclusion. And THAT process is what really drives religion more so than belief.
This is not complicated, except to philosophers. Everyone has experienced love in their life, and everyone has experienced hate. Some people very rationally conclude that they like love better than hate, and so they gravitate towards communities where like-minded people are discussing love.
They can't join an atheist philosophy forum to discuss love, because that conversation doesn't happen here. So they go where such conversations are happening. — Hippyhead
They can't join an atheist philosophy forum to discuss love, because that conversation doesn't happen here. — Hippyhead
https://thephilosophyforum.com/search?Search=Love&expand=yes&child=&forums=&or=Relevance&discenc=&mem=&tag=&pg=1&date=All&titles=1&Checkboxes%5B%5D=titles&Checkboxes%5B%5D=WithReplies&or=Relevance&user=&disc=&Checkboxes%5B%5D=child — praxis
Moral is a matter of cause and effect. We are not being punished. We are experiencing the effect of what have done. — Athena
This is not a good thing.Well, I witnessed certain years in which the flu killed in my country not less than 1 of 100 while about half the population (50%) were affected by it. But, in these years, no system/organization, local or abroad, saw it even an epidemic. — KerimF
For the nonbeliever, moral principle can only be sourced from within as personal opinion, — Merkwurdichliebe
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