I'm talking about the real owners now, the real owners, the big wealthy business interests that control things and make all the important decisions. Forget the politicians. The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don't. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you. They own everything. They own all the important land. They own and control the corporations. They’ve long since bought and paid for the senate, the congress, the state houses, the city halls, they got the judges in their back pockets and they own all the big media companies so they control just about all of the news and information you get to hear. —
Given today's climate, it's worth asking or re-awakening some basic philosophical questions about who and what we are as human beings, what a good life is, and what values we want to prioritize -- if for no other reason than informing our political decisions. — Xtrix
Agreed. However, since society, especially American capitalist society, has a heterogeneous demographic as a country, I believe that there is no clear answer to these questions. — The Questioning Bookworm
If the system is broken, which I believe in some areas it is, then we need to prioritize, demonstrate, motivate people to vote for officials that are aligned, and try our best to elect. — The Questioning Bookworm
The problem I find interesting in general political philosophy is: attempting to control, eradicate, and block injustice. Yet injustice always persists in any nation, country, and local. There is always a group that is marginalized. — The Questioning Bookworm
Anyhow, thanks for making this thread. Political philosophy is one of my favorite subjects to plumb the depths of. Cheers! — The Questioning Bookworm
To put social class head-and-shoulders above all the other topics out there has always seemed dubious. — BitconnectCarlos
I don't see disability or women's rights really being on par with class struggles. — Xtrix
I don't see disability or women's rights really being on par with class struggles.
— Xtrix
Well are you a woman or disabled? — BitconnectCarlos
What Marxism does, however, is it places the economic as the essential characteristic of the society as well as human nature. — BitconnectCarlos
Power I think is an interesting issue and I don't think it's completely synonymous with class, although the two are related. — BitconnectCarlos
In conclusion, if one accepts the principles mentioned above and uses them as guides for interpreting our current situation, one cannot help but wonder if we're long overdue for the overthrowing of plutocracy and the system which sustains it: capitalism. The more we clearly see the problem, the better we can see the solution, formulate appropriate goals towards a solution, and generate corresponding local, individual and collective actions to this end. — Xtrix
Our current situation isn't any different from times past. Those in power want to keep it and tell stories to that that effect, and those that don't believe those stories want the ones in power gone because.... well, they want some of that power too. — ChatteringMonkey
Questioning legitimacy is fine and all, because there really is no reason to just accept any of it, but i'm not sure what kind of 'solution' you expect? — ChatteringMonkey
If we ever would manage to overthrow the current 'rulers' you will invariably get a new class of rulers, which will effectively only be legitimized by the fact that they managed to overthrow the previous rules, by power in short... rinse repeat. — ChatteringMonkey
Says who? This is just a lack of imagination, really. It's been beaten out of people's heads for years, but there are plenty of ways to organize people. Take corporations. There's no reason why it has to be a top-down, un-democratic structure. But people don't even consider questioning that because an alternative is unimaginable. But alternatives do indeed exist. Take a look at the Spanish Revolution. — Xtrix
In that case, go to sleep. — Xtrix
The thing I take issue with is that you think there is a solution, not the fact that you question legitimacy. — ChatteringMonkey
A solution for what? Where do I say I think that? If I had a magic, general solution, I assure you I would have given it by now. — Xtrix
In conclusion, if one accepts the principles mentioned above and uses them as guides for interpreting our current situation, one cannot help but wonder if we're long overdue for the overthrowing of plutocracy and the system which sustains it: capitalism. The more we clearly see the problem, the better we can see the solution, formulate appropriate goals towards a solution, and generate corresponding local, individual and collective actions to this end. — Xtrix
That's a misrepresentation, in my view. To attribute class to "human nature" doesn't make sense. — Xtrix
If we get hung up on what "the" essential feature of history is, we won't get off the ground. — Xtrix
If you were to say I want to overthrow plutocracy because I don't like it, or because it's bad for me and a lot of people, I'd be fine with that. I just don't think the concept of legitimacy does anything really. — ChatteringMonkey
I was saying that according to Marx "human nature" is essentially just the product of the economic system. — BitconnectCarlos
In evaluating a society, according to Marx, look first and foremost at its economic structure or system. — BitconnectCarlos
If we get hung up on what "the" essential feature of history is, we won't get off the ground.
— Xtrix
Tell that to Marx. — BitconnectCarlos
But human beings have been around for 200,000 years, long before any real "economy." Was there no human nature prior to the industrial or agricultural revolutions? — Xtrix
Engels in the footnote, but it doesn't mean class struggle is the ONLY aspect of history. An essential one, yes. — Xtrix
I think there could be many reasonable solutions for the particular problems we face, but it takes questioning and working together to discover and implement them. The concept of "legitimacy" you're hung up on is a simple one: asking if this power structure is a legitimate one says is it justified, is it earned, are the decisions being made and actions being undertaken rational ones? etc. If you can justify to someone why you make a decision or take an action, then do so. Orders should be questioned. If you can't, you shouldn't be in power, take that action, etc. Who's the judge and jury? The people are -- namely the people who have to abide by the judgments and decisions of another. The ones who take the orders from above should question not only the orders, but why it is we're listening to this person (or these people) in the first place. Call it whatever you like, but to say you don't think it "does anything" is pretty strange. You do it all the time. Or should, anyway, — Xtrix
The ones who take the orders from above should question not only the orders, but why it is we're listening to this person (or these people) in the first place. — Xtrix
Ok, let me specify that I don't think it does anything philosophically. I don't think you get there by referring back to the concept of justification either. It's not as if there is agreement on what counts as proper justification. — ChatteringMonkey
The ones who take the orders from above should question not only the orders, but why it is we're listening to this person (or these people) in the first place.
— Xtrix
I just want to add that this is a very modern and recent notion, and not something that really plays out like you might think in practice, even today. — ChatteringMonkey
Let's look to the political and economic structure of our society. Let's look to the structures of our workplaces, where we, in the real world, work for a salary or a wage. Then let's ask if these structures should remain in place or not. If we find that they have no real justification for existing, then we should discuss alternatives. — Xtrix
the philosophers mistake (also not meant as an insult btw) that everything can and needs to be justified — ChatteringMonkey
When you tell someone else that they must do (or think) something, it absolutely does call for justification. Xtrix isn’t saying that people need justification for voluntarily participating in the social structures we have, but that the compulsive participation in them needs justification.
E.g. why shouldn’t I just be allowed to keep living where I live unless I pay someone to “let” me? Why should they get to decide that? Not why I should have the permission to pay them to let me, but why I should be obligated to do so. — Pfhorrest
Because they have the power and you have not, is the short of it. — ChatteringMonkey
Let's look to the political and economic structure of our society. Let's look to the structures of our workplaces, where we, in the real world, work for a salary or a wage. Then let's ask if these structures should remain in place or not. If we find that they have no real justification for existing, then we should discuss alternatives.
— Xtrix
See I'd like to have this conversation, but I think you are asking the wrong question... and I just can't get past that because i think it skews the dialogue. I think you are making the philosophers mistake (also not meant as an insult btw) that everything can and needs to be justified. — ChatteringMonkey
Maybe it's a political compromise that an organisation is the way it is, maybe there are practical reasons that aren't readily visible to someone viewing it from the outside, maybe there are reasons long forgotten... or maybe there is indeed no apparent reason at all. In any case, no one persons can possibly know the full reason for how the way things are... and so it's not really a fair question. — ChatteringMonkey
So yeah, I don't know how to argue this point any better, it just seems obvious to me that this is not the way to be approaching these issues. — ChatteringMonkey
If we are to make abstraction of all of history and pretend like there is a world in which power relations between people don't exist, then I don't think we will get anywhere. — ChatteringMonkey
There is no zero-option, I don't know why this is so hard to understand. — ChatteringMonkey
There are all kinds of specific reasons for specific structures -- again, in the real world. It's up to us to ask if we accept them or not. — Xtrix
The only one talking about a "zero-option" is you. — Xtrix
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