No, because this is the primary point of contention, and you keep ignoring the contradiction that you keep making. What makes the hardware in your head special in that it feels, but computer hardware can't? What does it mean to feel?No, the computer is not perceiving inputs in the way you and I perceive things. Press a finger against the back of your hand. You feel a sensation. When you press a key on the computer keyboard, the computer doesn't feel a sensation.
Shall we try to agree on this before we move on to the rest of your ideas? — Daemon
Again, what does it mean to feel?Do you think a piano feels something when you press the keys? — Daemon
It appears that you've answered your own question.the piano not perceiving certain inputs from the keyboard? Does it not perceive the meaning of your keystrokes and make the correct sounds for you to listen to? — Daemon
Harry I don't have a problem defining consciousness and suchlike. Like many words they are defined ostensively.
Wikipedia:
An ostensive definition conveys the meaning of a term by pointing out examples. This type of definition is often used where the term is difficult to define verbally, either because the words will not be understood (as with children and new speakers of a language) or because of the nature of the term (such as colours or sensations) — Daemon
But words are just colored scribbles and sounds. It seems like you'd have a problem defining the nature of words, too.Harry I don't have a problem defining consciousness and suchlike. Like many words they are defined ostensively.
Wikipedia:
An ostensive definition conveys the meaning of a term by pointing out examples. This type of definition is often used where the term is difficult to define verbally, either because the words will not be understood (as with children and new speakers of a language) or because of the nature of the term (such as colours or sensations) — Daemon
Is the piano not perceiving certain inputs from the keyboard? Does it not perceive the meaning of your keystrokes and make the correct sounds for you to listen to? — Daemon
It appears that you've answered your own question. — Harry Hindu
Was he saying that the sand on the beach (for example) was capable of cognition? — Daemon
Then that explains nothing. The whole universe is cause and effect, but consciousness happens in individuated pockets. — Daemon
Exactly! The relationship between cause and effect is information, and information is a fundamental unit of cognition.That would be the fundamental unit of cognition - basic cause and effect. The sand acknowledges the pressure of the footprint and gives way accordingly. Its a long way from the complicated cognition we enjoy, but it is the start of it. — Pop
Isn't your footprint information that Daemon passed this way? Doesn't the sand have a memory of your passing - the persistent existence of your footprint in the sand? Once the footprint is washed away, the sand forgets you ever passed this way.Was he saying that the sand on the beach (for example) was capable of cognition? — Daemon
Exactly! The relationship between cause and effect is information, and information is a fundamental unit of cognition. — Harry Hindu
Isn't your footprint information that Daemon passed this way? Doesn't the sand have a memory of your passing - the persistent existence of your footprint in the sand? Once the footprint is washed away, the sand forgets you ever passed this way. — Harry Hindu
What makes the hardware in your head special in that it feels, but computer hardware can't? What does it mean to feel?
If there is no perceivable difference between "simulated" intelligence and "real" intelligence, then any difference you perceive would be a difference of your own making stemming from your human biases. — Harry Hindu
Sure it does. It explains that everything is information. The problem is that you just don't like the idea because you haven't been able to supply a logical argument against it.The problem is that this approach explains nothing. What are footprints in the sand? Information. What is consciousness? Information. What is memory? Information. — Daemon
This says nothing about what memory is, or how it is associated with biological machinery and not other types of machinery.Memory is something that goes on in conscious minds. It's associated with conscious experience. There's a lot of very specific biological machinery involved, which has evolved over billions of years. It's an aspect of living beings. It's not an aspect of pianos, beach sand, or digital computers. — Daemon
No. The burden is upon you to explain what pain is.That's a shift of the burden of proof.
I feel pain.
I assume other humans also feel pain for various practical reasons, but also because if other humans were p-zombies they would have no reason to say that they experience pain.
Any claim beyond that, needs supporting arguments and data. In the case of animals, there are lots of good arguments for why at least some animals feel pain, but of course that's a big topic in itself.
But if someone wished to claim that computers, or non-living systems experience pain, the burden is on that person to provide an argument and data for this claim. — Mijin
a computer possessed information about the state of it's body, and was programmed to engage in behaviors when that information appears in working memory, then how is that any different than what humans do? — Harry Hindu
This says nothing about what memory is, or how it is associated with biological machinery and not other types of machinery. — Harry Hindu
No. The burden is upon you to explain what pain is. — Harry Hindu
You can only claim that others feel pain because of their behavior. If a computer behaved like they were in pain, would you say that they feel pain? You seem to be asserting that pain is a behavior. — Harry Hindu
What is a subjective experience, if not information in working memory about the environment relative to your body.Depends on whether the computer lacked a subjective experience of pain. — Marchesk
Haha, then why are you using a word that you don't know what it means. You literally don't know what you are talking about.Haha, what?
I didn't claim to know what pain is, why would I have a burden of proof on me? — Mijin
Then why do you use terms that you don't what they mean? That is ludicrous.That's all I know about it. If you'd like me to break down what a subjective experience actually is, well I can't, and nor would any neuroscientist claim to be able to at this time. That's the hard problem that we'd like to solve. — Mijin
What does it even mean for "an unpleasant subjective experience that follows activation of specific regions of the parietal lobe, usually (not always) preceded by stimulation of nociceptors of the nervous system"? How do subjective states follow from physical states?What I know about pain is that it is an unpleasant subjective experience, following activation of specific regions of the parietal lobe, usually (not always) preceded by stimulation of nociceptors of the nervous system. — Mijin
This makes no sense. You assume that other humans have it because they claim it, and don't assume it if a pzombie or computer claims it. You assume IT exist in humans without even knowing what IT is. You're losing me.I said that I assume (don't know) that other humans experience pain, because they freely claim that they do. P-zombies could of course claim to be in pain, but this would require the universe to be trying to fool me for some reason -- the simpler explanation for sentient beings claiming to have subjective experiences is that they actually do.
That's evidence and an argument for the existence of pain in other humans, not a claim that that is what pain *is*. — Mijin
This just causes more confusion about what a subjective experience is. Why do people keep using terms that they have no idea what it means? Is this not clear evidence that use and meaning are not one and the same? Can people use words that they don't know how to use?It's not all perceptual. A dream of a red apple isn't information about an apple in the external environment. — Marchesk
This says nothing about how memory is associated with biological machinery and not other types of machinery. — Harry Hindu
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