Physical pain is unpleasant, and explaining how matter can have unpleasant sensations is the hard part. The "illusion" of being in pain seems to also be unpleasant. So what exactly is calling it an illusion bringing to the table?
I don't think consciousness is immaterial, but I don't think dennett is right either. Explanatory power is the measure of any hypothesis. — Mijin
What you'll see and hear will be exactly what the camera records through its lens and microphone — TheMadFool
Your disagreement isn't an valid argument against anything I've said.So, everywhere. I disagree. — bongo fury
Then semantics/meaning is a fiction?But it's a special fiction indulged by animals capable of playing along. — bongo fury
How do images "literally" exist inside brains?Yep, images and sounds don't literally exist inside computers. They're encoded as information for output devices that create sound and light waves for our eyes and ears. — Marchesk
How do images "literally" exist inside brains? — Harry Hindu
Well, that was my question: how do minds exist "inside" brains?I don't know. The exist in our minds, though, and arguably nowhere else. — Marchesk
Well, that was my question: how do minds exist "inside" brains? — Harry Hindu
But then I think you need to also explain how images are "in" minds, too. — Harry Hindu
But then I think you need to also explain how images are "in" minds, too.
— Harry Hindu
Produced by minds, part of the makeup of minds, however you wish to phrase it. — Marchesk
Then how do you know that minds or images don't literally exist in computers?How do images "literally" exist inside brains?
— Harry Hindu
I don't know. — Marchesk
Its only a hard problem if you're a dualist. You have to explain how certain hardware contains minds and other hardware doesn't. The problem is thinking in "physical" and "mental" terms - that there are physical boxes that contain these non-physical things we call images and minds.It's a hard problem. But maybe we'll know in another century. — Marchesk
Thats just rephrasing your statement that images are in minds. What does it mean for a mind to produce images? Doest your computer produce images on the screen? Where is the image of this web page- in your brain, in your mind, or on the computer monitor?Produced by minds, part of the makeup of minds, however you wish to phrase it. Mind being a word for consciousness, thinking, intentionality, desire and anything that's difficult to reduce to neurons firing and chemicals flowing. — Marchesk
Then how do you know that minds or images don't literally exist in computers? — Harry Hindu
Its only a hard problem if you're a dualist. — Harry Hindu
Thats just rephrasing your statement that images are in minds. What does it mean for a mind to produce images? — Harry Hindu
don't know what consciousness is, but thinking, intentionality and desire can all be reduced to behavior. — Harry Hindu
Given that our knowledge and understanding of brains is in the form of conscious visual models, if our minds are illusions, then so is our understanding of brains. All the deniers do is undermine their own theories of how brains work.One of the strangest things the Deniers say is that although it seems that there is conscious experience, there isn’t really any conscious experience: the seeming is, in fact, an illusion. — Olivier5
iven that our knowledge and understanding of brains is in the form of conscious visual models, if our minds are illusions, then so is our understanding of brains. — Harry Hindu
I'm not one of those asserting that the mind is an illusion, or doesn't exist. What I'm saying is that our view of the world as "physical" boxes containing "non-physical" images and minds is wrong. The boxes are quantified information. There are no "physical" boxes with "non-physical" items in them. It is all information.If i knew, I'd be famous. Assuming I could explain it to the rest of you bullet-biting p-zombies. — Marchesk
Ok. Everyone hang their gloves up, fight's over. Someone thinks it's silly, so that's settled the matter to everyone's satisfaction... — Isaac
The main idea is not difficult to understand, whether or not you agree with it. — SophistiCat
Given that our knowledge and understanding of brains is in the form of conscious visual models, if our minds are illusions, then so is our understanding of brains. All the deniers do is undermine their own theories of how brains work. — Harry Hindu
Good question! If the illusion of consciousness is what you experience as awareness, then for you it's your window to reality. But apparently, Dennett is simply saying that Consciousness is not a material substance, hence not a real thing, therefore not important. The reality for him is objective neurons twinkling, and the subjective experience is a deception. Perhaps, when Dennett sees a beautiful woman, he ignores that illusion, and focuses on those lovely abstract neuronal patterns.What's the distinction between the illusion of consciousness and consciousness? — Mijin
Apparently, Dennett doesn't value that mushy sentimental illusion we call "the Self", simply because it doesn't "matter", literally. :smile:Consciousness is the human being's ability to talk to himself about himself, tell his own story and draw long-term conclusions, from where he acquires the ability to promise things. — Rafaella Leon
It’s about the logical contradictions of materialism. Logic is important for some. — Olivier5
Your disagreement isn't a valid argument against anything I've said. — Harry Hindu
Then semantics/meaning is a fiction?
Wouldn't that mean that syntax is non-fiction? — Harry Hindu
Most semantics, though, even where plausibly construed as literal and factual, is far too complex and disputable to reduce to syntax. — bongo fury
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