And?

Yes, that's right because it's a matter of definition.

And finally, and I think most tellingly, we can talk about the experience of sonar. We can talk about the distance at which a dolphin can recognise a mackerel, or at which a bat can track a moth. — Banno

That's not talking about their experience of sonar though?

We can't talk much (sense) even about our own experiences, to someone who hasn't had such experiences. Experiences can only be described by pointing at them.

So we can't know directly what things taste like or look like to other people: but how likely is it in practical terms that red looks different to all of us? I can see there's room for variability, more or less sensitivity, genetic variation as with colourblindness, but I reckon in general things probably look and feel and taste and smell broadly similar to us all. I know that's not a philosophical argument.

Thats... sorta what I said. Belief statements are, all of them, beliefs that some statement is true.

Or, if you prefer, beliefs are expressible as a belief in some possible state of affairs.

They amount to the same thing, even considering substitution salva veritate.

Consider that not everything in the intersubjective world was created by humans; a good deal of it is discovered - principles such as non-contradiction, natural numbers, all of the other 'furniture of reason'. — Wayfarer

I think of logic as an a priori. So it’s either a part of our operating system, or a world with its own rules that we tap into. I tend to lean for the first solution: a part of our operating system. So in this sense it was indeed not produced by humans, only codified (aka translated in symbols) by them. Likewise we have certain neurons recognising the first few natural numbers when they show up in a pattern or scene. Octopuses too, BTW. Now of course, this leaves totally open the questions of why logic as we know it may be in our operating system, and whether it works or not.

Just to make sure I understand, a belief is a thing in your own mind, and also a pattern of behaviour? But for a cat it's just a pattern of behaviour?

Or if you think matter is ordinary stuff all the way down as opposed to fields and particles. — Marchesk

That makes no sense. There are different kinds of "ordinary stuff", of matter. Matter seems to be constituted by fields and particles; what's the problem?

Tell me what you understand "substitution salva veritae" to mean?

We can't talk much (sense) even about our own experiences, to someone who hasn't had such experiences. — Daemon

Yeah, we can. Bet you never had a perforated bowl. Them suckers hurt. But curiously, the pain felt like having a very, very full bladder. Take the drugs, is all I say.

Seems you want to go fishing. Not my cuppa.

That makes no sense. There are different kinds of "ordinary stuff", of matter. Matter seems to be constituted by fields and particles; what's the problem? — Janus

Having the wrong conception of what ordinary stuff is made up of fundamentally. If you think it's all made of water or the five elements or just the stuff you can feel and see, then you're wrong about the world.

The point is that you cannot believe that 'x is P' is true, without believing that x is P without contradicting yourself. — Janus

Only if propositions must follow classical logic. But what if a proposition is fuzzy, or true under certain ways of looking at things, like how the snow appears to humans?

Just to make sure I understand, a belief is a thing in your own mind, and also a pattern of behaviour? But for a cat it's just a pattern of behaviour? — Daemon

Well, no, I think that very badly expressed.

Fair enough. I was finding this frustrating too, if you decide to come up with an argument for your position (that beliefs can only be about statements), rather than requiring me to do all the legwork, I'd be down to discuss more.

Another thing is, i’ve had the same weight plus or minus a kg for the past 20 years. It’s not like I weight nothing, nor that sometimes I weight three tons and sometimes one gram. So by body seems to behave as a somewhat stable material object. My mind of course is another... matter?

The argument is simply an observation. It's a commonplace, and that you can't see it is what is extraordinary here. I rather think you nailed your flag to the mast too early, and would rather take it down now.

Having the wrong conception of what ordinary stuff is made up of fundamentally. If you think it's all made of water or the five elements or just the stuff you can feel and see, then you're wrong about the world. — Marchesk

Sure, it's not impossible that we have the wrong understanding of what constitutes matter. But it does seem vanishingly unlikely, given the predictive success of quantum physics, that it could be completely wrong, like the notions that matter is made of water, or the five elements were. The latter were simply armchair imaginings with no empirical investigation behind them.

The idea that matter could be made of the stuff you can feel and see is absurd, arse-about; the stuff you can feel and see is made of matter.

I was responding in context of Oliver's post about someone not knowing what matter is. They say they know the world is material because they were told that by their teacher.

I see the mind as being an activity of the body. Activities do not weigh anything, although they may indeed, in another sense, carry weight.

OK, I've been drawing a distinction between what matter is and what constitutes matter. By definition whatever it is that constitutes matter must be material. It's just that there may be forms of material unknown to us, since our knowledge is not complete.

The argument is simply an observation. It's a commonplace, and that you can't see it is what is extraordinary here. — Banno

I can see the appeal of the position, I just don't agree with it.

I rather think you nailed your flag to the mast too early, and would rather take it down now. — Banno

Nah. It's that I don't think I'd be able to make you doubt your position regardless of what I say, and I don't want to try a fifth strategy (fifth!) to start the discussion when you've yet to present a positive argument for your position. "simply an observation" won't do, it's theory ladened.

"simply an observation" won't do, it's theory ladened. — fdrake

...as are all observations.

I'm parroting Davidson, or at least my version of Davidson. SO I don't think I'm alone.

Why do you have misgivings?

(Edit: What you are claiming seems to me to be on a par with "'Socrates' is not a noun". It's not about evidence so much as ways of speaking.

Thanks to both luck and good management I've never actually had a full bladder so I don't know what you mean. Seriously though, it's only because I've had a similar experience that I can understand you.

But you said you had not had similar experiences...

So that's not right.

The idea that matter could be made of the stuff you can feel and see is absurd, arse-about; the stuff you can feel and see is made of matter. — Janus

Could I suggest that neither is "made of" the other? Matter is the stuff you can feel and see.

Ah sorry, I made a confusing and weak joke. I have had similar experiences. But what is a similar experience to vision, for example?

Neutrinos?

...as are all observations. — Banno

Yes.

SO I don't think I'm alone. — Banno

I don't think you are either. What convinces you that beliefs can only be about statements?

Thanks but I've already eaten.
What were you getting at?

What do you have in mind as counter-example? For example, "I believe that I'm special". Would that count as a belief that is not about a statement?

Thanks but I've already eaten. — Daemon

Are you a black hole?

What were you getting at? — Daemon

Not really sure at this point. Something to do about beliefs, statements and states of affairs. Also, minds. I'm trying to throw a monkey wrench in the gears, but not really sure where I come down on this.

I disagree that "The snow is white" is as simple as it looks.

Just to make sure I understand, a belief is a thing in your own mind, and also a pattern of behaviour? But for a cat it's just a pattern of behaviour? — Daemon


Well, no, I think that very badly expressed. — Banno

Oh, I'm sorry, it was an honest attempt to summarise what you said. Where did I go wrong?