Obviously, it is an extremely sensitive area and I would not recommend staff self disclosing personal beliefs but I do think that mental health professionals need to listen to patients' struggles, rather than dismiss them. It is not very helpful if nurses and psychiatrists simply ignore the struggles over beliefs and philosophical questions and simply offer medication. — Jack Cummins

Would you say Joseph Campbell is very helpful here? When we have a shared mythology and group identity, we have a comfortable notion of who we are and what is expected of us. But when we live in overwhelmingly large populations and do not have a shared mythology, how can we be certain of anything?

Children are often hurt in ways they do not understand when they are too young to defend against painful things that happen to them, so when a young person comes of age, the child may have self-doubts and negative feelings about him/her self and no coping skills for dealing with this. The gods and all religions give us coping skills and something to hold onto but there are two sides to everything, and stories of sin, demons, and Satan are dangerous. When I questioned if I was possessed, not only did this notion come out of religious ideas, and a well meaning Christian telling me Satan was testing me, but at the time, Satanism was popular and that hooked my imagination. What if there is truth in witchcraft and Satan and demons and ghosts and other strange things? It kind of irritates me that Christians today have a fantasy that does not include the dark side of their religion, but when it did, we had witch hurts. I would say without doubt Christianity is a key factor in mental illness. And I find the Greek mythology and their theater that presented the gods and heroes time and again, much better. Greek gods are concepts, not supernatural beings.

We need rites of passage

Wikipedia – A rite of passage is a ritual event that marks a person’s transition from one status to another. Rites of passage explore and describe various notable milestones in an individual’s life, for any marked transitional stage, when one’s social status is altered. (This link comes with a video of Joseph Campbell's explanation). https://mensfellowship.net/rites-passage3/ — Joseph Campbell

Your friends needed someone to help them through their rite of passage and thinking individuals who struggle need personal, private counseling, maybe a mistake. We might need a cultural awareness of what is true for all of us?

As for the effect of Covid and mass psychosis, I think you are right, but us old folks have more immunity against that psychosis. We came of age in a different time, more connected with WWII and pulling together to overcome an evil and willing to sacrifice for the good of all. And in the US thinking that group effort in wearing masks and distancing, is fascists, is for sure insanity and I hope in history Trump goes down as the worst president our nation has ever had. Sorry but he sure has not united us and we are living in fear of violence and fear of each other. Notions of science and religion are very tied into this! The US has many serious problems and people are reactionary, rather than thoughtful.

"In the mess we are in I am not sure if the religious or the scientists can help us." :heart: You are right my love, they can not. But Greek philosophy can. I stress it must be Greek philosophy because that is the philosophy essential to democracy. Replacing education for Greek philosophy with German philosophy brings us to the brink of disaster.

↪Brett
You said,
'I imagine it's possible with someone with schizophrenia to apply their reason to their problems, and it would make sense to them, one step leading logically to the next, but it's based on irrationality, so it could no longer be called reason.'

From my understanding, even though you say that a person 'with schizophrenia' can use reason you are suggesting it is still based on irrationality. Actually, I think that all human beings have some contradictions between reason and lack of it, so schizophrenia has no bearing on the matter and did not need to be mentioned at all. — Jack Cummins

Bert, you are not understanding schizophrenia. If you are taking a shower and see a violent threatening person, what is the rational response? How do you reason threw your boss having an elephant's trunk?
How do you deal with your daughter wanting to avoid you because she can not cope with your behavior resulting from schizophrenia? There are different degrees of the schizophrenic experience. It may be mild and harmless such as seeing the elephant trunk on someone's face and knowing this isn't right, or it can be like a bad drug trip. Sometimes medication is enough to make it manageable and sometimes it is not but there is a cost to being medicated and for some that may be worse than hallucinating.

Jack, you are right. We should not assume the schizophrenic is working with good information. I argue with myself all the time and I think that is normal, especially when we receive conflicting information or we have one day off and a list of things we want to do and a list of things we should do, or we see that yummy chocolate cake and know we shouldn't eat it. But for a schizophrenic, the information they are working with can not always be tied to reality and their condition may isolate them adding social rejection to their problems. What if we are dealing with social rejection and can not change something about ourselves that is causing the social rejection? What is the rational way of coping with that?

I believe that all religions attempt to culture an attitude of self-honesty. Whether they have an efficient method, or are successful, is another thing. — Metaphysician Undercover

Good morning love. :heart: You get my day off to a good start. :grin: I love your question about the efficiency of different religions. I think the God of Abraham religions are the most threatening because of the notion of a god having favorite people, which is connected to a notion that this god wants us to engage in wars that include us in His "power and glory". But it is not just the religion that matters. It is also how we are indoctrinated to that religion. Christians disagree with each other more than Christians and Muslims disagree. :lol: Protestants and Catholics killed each other. Sunni and Shia kill each other.
Christians and Muslims kill each other. And God's chosen people do not know God's truth and have been persecuted by both Christians and Muslims. :lol: That is not very efficient but could make a great comedy. :lol: It was not religion that brought us to peace, but democracy.

"Good moral judgement" is insufficient for good moral actions. We all know that an individual might judge an action as wrong, yet still go through with it. This is why we need more than just to be educated in good moral principles, because such education does not necessitate good behaviour. That's what Socrates and Plato demonstrated in their refutation of the sophists who claimed to teach virtue for large sums of money. — Metaphysician Undercover

Being virtuous requires knowledge of virtues so I would not agree with Socrates and his student, Plato, on this point. Confucius explains the need to practice those virtues until they become a habit. I do not know if the sophists explained that? I facilitated workshops for healthy living, so I know the frustration of giving people good information only for them to make excuses themselves or just ignore the information and maintain their cries of sorrows. "Logically" we can not know the right thing and do the wrong thing. It is illogical to do what will bring harm to ourselves and others.

[quote="Metaphysician
Undercover;480906"]I think the fantasy is the idea that science can give us morality. Sure, science might show us a lot of things which are wrong, and in many cases, it can even tell us what we ought to do, but it doesn't actually inspire us to do it.[/quote]

:sweat: You are really making me work at finding the right words. :heart: I love that.

Your argument is like ordering a glass of water and then complaining that it is not what you want when it is served warm. In 1958 we stopped transmitting the culture that we had put in place for a highly moral society that can enjoy liberty without authority above the people and without social problems, and we left moral training to the church. This was a huge mistake!

We have not exactly had education for science. We have had education for technology for military and industrial purposes, and that is an amoral education.

Science can just as easily be tied to morality. Research on poverty and human problems such as schizophrenia, or prejudice, etc. is tying science and morality together. A moral is a matter of cause and effect and that is why science is very important!

It really matters how we understand democracy, liberty, and what morality has to do with both, and then what science has to do with good moral judgment and taking power away from men like Mao, Hitler, and a recent national leader who has ignored science. I wish I could think of better words to explain what science has to do with our liberty. It is a matter of how we come to know truth and what we choose to do with our knowledge. Making the wrong decisions will destroy the good and we do not get away with that.

[reply="Athena;481393"
Actually, I think it was easier for me to talk about religion with patients than people who had fixed views because I was able to listen and make general uncommitted comments. The people who had very set beliefs often came rather unstuck and often ended up self-disclosing but I am not really sure that they upset any patients, but they did upset me a few times by preaching to me.

I do get upset if people preach fundamentalist religious beliefs to me because I am do question life a lot. Discussions with other staff often happened on night shifts, when we were taking our breaks. The reason why they occurred was because they were in the office reading their Bibles and I was reading my philosophical books. I think they were rather astounded by some of the esoteric books which I read.

But, of course some of the staff I worked with were open minded, especially some of the psychiatrists. Perhaps that is not surprising because they had been trained in the sciences. However, I was rather surprised that some of the doctors had never heard of Carl Jung.

As far as the two friends I had who killed themselves, I don't know what happened exactly. The first one was not in London and I had not heard from him for a couple of weeks and it was only after hearing of his death that I found out that he had been admitted to hospital, but discharged the day before he threw himself out of a college window. He was only 19, and I don't know if he had been given a diagnosis.

My second friend was a few years older and had been in hospital a few times and the doctors seemed uncertain whether he should be diagnosed with schizophrenia or bipolar effective disorder. He frequently stopped taking his medication and even when taking it, he was often thinking God was talking to him and he had visual hallucinations a lot of the time. However, he also smoked cannabis most of the time. In the days before he killed himself, I think that he was smoking some strong skunk weed. I say this because I was not smoking it myself and I felt stoned through smoking it passively. But, I spoke to him on the phone a few hours before he also jumped out of a window, and he did not admit to any thoughts of suicide and had arranged to meet up with me the following day.

Of course, I think it is true that often the people who are thinking of suicide who are the ones who do, which makes risk assessment difficult. And of course, it is not just psychotic people who are at risk. I believe that the suicide rate and the people contacting help-lines has escalated due to the lockdowns and social restrictions. That is one of the reasons why the whole pandemic is so complicated.

Many extremely religious people are devastated by not being able to go to church, although some are open for smaller numbers. I just wish the libraries were open again and the coffee shops. I have books but usually do my reading and writing in libraries and coffee shops.

I think that Christmas is on the verge of being cancelled in London now, because there is a rather strong strain of the virus around. Personally, I am not bothered about Christmas but my mother will be extremely upset if I cannot go to her in Bedford, but I just don't know what the rule is going to be because London is just moving into the highest tier.

Let us just hope that life improves for everyone in 2021, but I think it is going to take a long time for the problems to be over, and life will be different from the way it was before. Let's just hope that it becomes better rather than worse eventually.

I think the God of Abraham religions are the most threatening because of the notion of a god having favorite people, which is connected to a notion that this god wants us to engage in wars that include us in His "power and glory". — Athena

That ancient God is a bit weird, "jealous" for example, and angry such that He might smite you. In those times I think they were assigning to God human emotions, which it was later realized that a well-tempered person ought to control. This might be an indication of how human attitude toward different emotions evolves. Jealousy seemed like it might be considered a good trait back then, but now it is not considered to be a good emotion. In any case, human emotions were attributed to God. You might notice that Jesus rebelled against the misrepresentation of the relationship between people and God. In Christianity most the human characteristics of God are removed, except love, but we're still left with a weird relationship between Jesus and God.

Being virtuous requires knowledge of virtues so I would not agree with Socrates and his student, Plato, on this point. — Athena

Being virtuous does require knowledge, this is not what is disputed by Plato. What is disputed is the idea that knowledge is sufficient for virtue. Knowledge is necessary, but not sufficient. We will sometimes go ahead and engage in activity which we know is wrong.

"Logically" we can not know the right thing and do the wrong thing. It is illogical to do what will bring harm to ourselves and others. — Athena

Since we very clearly can go ahead and act in ways that are illogical, doing something which we know is illogical (maybe buying a lottery ticket as a simple example), I think we might find that virtue is not based in logic. Plato introduced a tripartite person. To the body/mind division he added spirit or passion as a medium between the two. Spirit, or passion, is responsible for action, later becoming known as will, and in Plato's theory the spirit can ally with the mind, to ensure that we act rationally, but also the spirit might ally with the body which would influence us to act irrationally. So in the instances when we know the right thing but do the wrong thing, the spirit, which is the cause of action, is aligned with the body rather than the mind.

Your argument is like ordering a glass of water and then complaining that it is not what you want when it is served warm. In 1958 we stopped transmitting the culture that we had put in place for a highly moral society that can enjoy liberty without authority above the people and without social problems, and we left moral training to the church. This was a huge mistake! — Athena

This might be argued as a "huge mistake", but someone else might argue that separating church from state was an even bigger mistake. Looking back in time and pointing to what you apprehend as a mistake is probably not very productive because I think it's better to look at history as a natural progression, an evolution. Whether the process is a corruption, and the species is headed toward extinction, or the process is a generation, and the species is evolving toward something better, would be an extremely complicated and difficult judgement.

Science can just as easily be tied to morality. Research on poverty and human problems such as schizophrenia, or prejudice, etc. is tying science and morality together. A moral is a matter of cause and effect and that is why science is very important! — Athena

I don't see this at all. Morality is not a matter of cause and effect, it is a matter of determining good from bad, proper judgement of goals. Before we can determine the required means (cause), we need sound judgement that the desired end is actually good, not just appearing to be good. How could science actually determine what is good, rather than just being the pragmatist's means for obtaining what has already been determined as good, through the use of some other principles?

In 1958 we stopped transmitting the culture that we had put in place for a highly moral society that can enjoy liberty without authority above the people and without social problems, and we left moral training to the church. This was a huge mistake! — Athena

I’m not sure what you mean by this. The culture that you believe we stopped transmitting from 1958 was what, I presume, created the culture you valued up to that point. From then on it was corrupted by the church and it’s morals. Are you referring to the United States or countries in general?

Bert, you are not understanding schizophrenia. — Athena

In what way do you think I don’t understand schizophrenia?

We should not assume the schizophrenic is working with good information. I argue with myself all the time and I think that is normal, especially when we receive conflicting information or we have one day off and a list of things we want to do and a list of things we should do, or we see that yummy chocolate cake and know we shouldn't eat it. But for a schizophrenic, the information they are working with can not always be tied to reality and their condition may isolate them adding social rejection to their problems. — Athena

Isn’t this pretty much what my post said?

Really, I was only challenging your sentence. I have just read what you wrote about the unconscious mind in the thread on whether art is creative. I was impressed by what you wrote i. I am starting to wonder if the reason the word schizophrenia crept into your sentence is because you are interested in the way in which the person who has schizophrenia has a more direct experience of the unconscious than people who rely simply upon the rational conscious mind. Do you think that is a more true picture of where you stand?

The reason why they occurred was because they were in the office reading their Bibles and I was reading my philosophical books. — Jack Cummins

I don't think I would like that job because I do not like to be around people who prefer the Bible to philosophy. However, there have been some discussions in this forum that make me wonder why anyone would be interested in philosophy. :brow: Some people are just so technologically correct and their arguments seem to have nothing to do with living.

I think I was clinically depressed for many years? That was a long time spent in Hades and of course, I contemplated suicide. I thought I could not leave behind any who would be hurt by my suicide, so I began going through the list of people who I would have to kill and then realized if I killed these people, I would have to kill everyone who would be hurt by their deaths. And it hit me, I could not undo my life. The circle of people just got bigger and bigger. Then I decided if I could not kill myself, I would just have to do my best to make life better. However, it was not until the divorce and then children grew up and left home, that I fully broke through the depression. I was so reminded of Socrates' explanation of coming out of the cave. It seemed I rediscovered happiness, and instead of living in the shadows, I was in the sunshine and life was colorful. It was an amazing experience.

When I was depressed I saw a cartoon that was very helpful. A man was standing at a customer service booth and said, "I don't like life. Do anything better to offer?" That got me to thinking. What could be better than life? Here is where philosophy comes in right?

I was surprised that so many of the people in the jobs I was working in. There were so many staff requesting Sundays off, to the point where I think patients realised why certain staff were on or off on Sundays, because I remember a patient joking about the 'heathen team who cover the Sunday shifts.

I would say that my experience of the site is mixed. I don't really mind diverse views, but sometimes when people get into being offensive to one another, which I have seen more of on some other threads, I wonder what is going on. Mind you, I have worked in a few places where there was such hostility between people, that the whole atmosphere was completely toxic.

Yes, for me the whole problem of suicide would be the effects for others. I just imagine that people who do really kill themselves get locked into such a mindset that they lose sight of all else.I have also known many who have made suicide attempts and failed, including some who have ended up disabled permanently as a result.

I once read a fantastic book on the subject of suicide by James Hillman, called, Suicide and the Soul. Hillman speaks of the suicidal search as being one a wish to end the life one is living, and have a transformed life. He stresses that the art is for this not have to be in the concrete act of suicide itself, but the suicidal urge in itself as making way for transformation on some level in one's life.

I’m not sure what you mean by this. The culture that you believe we stopped transmitting from 1958 was what, I presume, created the culture you valued up to that point. From then on it was corrupted by the church and it’s morals. Are you referring to the United States or countries in general? — Brett

Sorry I did not specify I was speaking specifically of the US 1958 National Defense Education Act. I was in school when it was enacted and I remember that day because it was so frightening. All the teachers in the school were acting weird and at that time we were doing diving under our desks and covering our heads, as though that would help us survive and nuclear attack. :rofl: It was a tense time and especially that day got my attention. Then a teacher finally explained the purpose of education had been changed. They were now preparing the young for a technological society with unknown values. This day set the course of life. I have collected old books about education and old grade school text for many years. My grandmother was a teacher and her generation of teachers thought they were defending democracy in the classroom.

Imagine if churches stopped focusing people on the Bible and began teaching math and science. How long would the Christianity we have today, be as it is today? We took our culture for granted and that was a huge mistake! If you are a US citizen, how many principles of democracy can you list? How would you tell the story of the transition to democracy?

The US adopted the German model of bureaucracy and the education that goes with it and is now what it defended its democracy against. I am really curious to know what the outcome of the present culture wars in the US will be. You might notice we throw the word "fascist" around, but it is our grown-up boogeyman that we really don't know much about. We have no idea what it has to do with bureaucratic order and education. To relate this to philosophy, Socrates fought the war against Sparta and Athens lost and Sparta controlled Athens for 30 years. Plato was a student of Socrates who was pretty soured by loosing the war, and Plato was Aristotle's teacher. Aristotle admired the Spartans and much later the church used the teachings of Aristotle to justify its authority. The US was a modern-day Athens with an education system based on Athens education. Germany was the modern-day Sparta when the Prussians took over the rule of Germany.

Although the US won the war with the modern-day Sparta, it imitated Germany in the most significant ways. With the institutions of Germany, the democracy we had is becoming a dying memory. Now please show me your ID and present government-approved documents before we go any further with this discussion. We can not use public transportation without government-approved ID, and the responsibility for that is shifting to the federal government. To get a passport to go to countries we entered and left with no passports, you now must have a federal ID. My grandmother's generation must be wondering if fought the world wars for nothing? Replacing the Greek and Roman philosophers with German one's has had consequences.

I must have been rushing because I did not interpret you correctly. :yikes: My sincere apology. I know better than to post when I am rushed or when I am tired. But you know, sometimes we just want to leave the game when our Mom says it is time to come in. Then we get in trouble. It was my bad.

That ancient God is a bit weird, "jealous" for example, and angry such that He might smite you. In those times I think they were assigning to God human emotions, which it was later realized that a well-tempered person ought to control. This might be an indication of how human attitude toward different emotions evolves. Jealousy seemed like it might be considered a good trait back then, but now it is not considered to be a good emotion. In any case, human emotions were attributed to God. You might notice that Jesus rebelled against the misrepresentation of the relationship between people and God. In Christianity most the human characteristics of God are removed, except love, but we're still left with a weird relationship between Jesus and God. — Metaphysician Undercover

I think it was common for humanity to fear an angry god. It is not always the fault of humans if a god/goddess is angry but just the same we better do what we can to make the god/goddess happy because bad things happen when a god/goddess is upset. But I don't think jealousy was a common trait of gods and goddesses. Oh my goodness, the more I think on this the more interesting the subject becomes! I don't think Zeus was a jealous god but his wife Hera sure was! Another point of interest here is Hera did terrible things to female humans who Zeus was interested in, but she did not punish the whole of humanity.

Would you be interested in a more focused discussion of the gods and the evolution of this kind of thinking?

Being virtuous does require knowledge, this is not what is disputed by Plato. What is disputed is the idea that knowledge is sufficient for virtue. Knowledge is necessary, but not sufficient. We will sometimes go ahead and engage in activity which we know is wrong. — Metaphysician Undercover

Totally agree. I very much like Confucius' explanation of this. A woman of the Bahia faith made virtue cards that explain each virtue and then the practice of the virtue. It is clear unless we practice a virtue until it is a habit, an automatic response, we do not have the advantage of that virtue.

However, knowing a virtue and having good moral judgment are two separate things. Socrates focused
on the expansion of our consciousness and here I can see where he may have a bone to pick with the sophist. Conscience meaning coming out of knowledge. If all we know is our own experience of life, we will be too narrow-minded to have good moral judgment. Our modern education is falling way short because education for technology dropped literacy. Just knowing how to read does not make a person literate. To be literate one must read the classics and learn about life through books, developing a broader consciousness. In short, a technological education is not enough for good moral judgment. And Athens shifted its education focus on being technologically correct, just as the US did and both did so a little less than 200 years after their beginning.

Since we very clearly can go ahead and act in ways that are illogical, doing something which we know is illogical (maybe buying a lottery ticket as a simple example), I think we might find that virtue is not based in logic. Plato introduced a tripartite person. To the body/mind division he added spirit or passion as a medium between the two. Spirit, or passion, is responsible for action, later becoming known as will, and in Plato's theory the spirit can ally with the mind, to ensure that we act rationally, but also the spirit might ally with the body which would influence us to act irrationally. So in the instances when we know the right thing but do the wrong thing, the spirit, which is the cause of action, is aligned with the body rather than the mind. — Metaphysician Undercover

I claim a moral is a matter of cause and effect and that makes good moral judgment a matter of logic. Here I will stress this is different from being virtuous. I know I should not eat the two cookies I just ate, but I do not have the strength of character to resist. So we have two things going. One is we must know burning fuels that put carbon in the air is causing a serious problem, before we have the logic to resolve the problem. Two, we must have the strength of character to make the sacrifice that must be made, or we will not do the logical thing and stop destroying our planet. However, as we gain more knowledge and suffer the consequences of our actions, that may strengthen our will to change our behavior. But if we think God is in control and what is happening is His plan, then this planet will loose most of the life on it. This is a decision to rely on the Bible, not science and it can be very pleasing because it means doing as one pleases until the very end. There is logic to relying on the Bible but some of us may think that is bad logic because it is based on ignorance- intentionally ignoring knowledge. But hey, the Bible sets us for this with the story of Adam and Eve being punished because they chose to have knowledge. As my X Christian friend warns, that knowledge might be from Satan.

I really like your last sentence! :cheer: what a yummy thing to contemplate! What is the spirit of the Christian who ignores knowledge, and the spirit of the pagan who thinks that knowledge is vitally important? Also, what is the source of spirit? When I felt my mother had betrayed me by lying to me about Santa Claus, she lovingly explained Santa Claus is the spirit of Christmas. The spirit of Christmas is clearly manifested by thoughts and actions.

Morale is that high spirited feeling we have when we believe we are doing the right thing. The American spirit is that high morale, and a high mortality is essential to our liberty and democracy. So what would you say is the source of spirit?

I once read a fantastic book on the subject of suicide by James Hillman, called, Suicide and the Soul. Hillman speaks of the suicidal search as being one a wish to end the life one is living, and have a transformed life. He stresses that the art is for this not have to be in the concrete act of suicide itself, but the suicidal urge in itself as making way for transformation on some level in one's life. — Jack Cummins

Years ago I called professionals to ask if they were hiring. It was a requirement of getting an unemployment check to inquire about jobs. One of the professionals counseled people who are suicidal and I recoiled. I asked if that is not terribly depressing? In a very enthusiastic way, he said it was not.
He explained it was his job to help people discover what they wanted so much they were willing to die for it and then help them realize a better way to get what they want.

I never got what I wanted, but I learned to live without it, and after many years of grieving, I learn how to create a new life as Athena and how to be happy. :heart:

I probably summarised Hillman's argument very badly, especially as I don't have a copy of it to quote or refer to. What I probably failed to show was that he is talking about transformation on an inner level, not in terms of outer goals. James Hillman is influenced by Jung and wrote his books on archetypal psychology and is concerned more with the inner journey.

This is in contrast to the whole way in which I have seen recovery based mental health care which is structured around clear objective goals.
That is one of the difficulties I found with cognitive behavioral therapy, which is all about achieving clear goals and misses out the on what is going on with the unconscious.

When I was writing a paper on art therapy with suicidal clients my tutor spoke of enabling people to live without hope. Both the idea of setting clear objective goals or trying to live without hope both seem extremes. Probably the process of trying to sort out our lives is the most we can do. It is good that you found happiness even though you were grieving.

I liked your reference, about a week ago, to your real snakes, because sometimes there seem to be more snakes than ladders, but I do try to hold on to a sense of humour. That was especially important when working in mental health care.

I think it was common for humanity to fear an angry god. It is not always the fault of humans if a god/goddess is angry but just the same we better do what we can to make the god/goddess happy because bad things happen when a god/goddess is upset. But I don't think jealousy was a common trait of gods and goddesses. Oh my goodness, the more I think on this the more interesting the subject becomes! I don't think Zeus was a jealous god but his wife Hera sure was! Another point of interest here is Hera did terrible things to female humans who Zeus was interested in, but she did not punish the whole of humanity. — Athena

The god of the Old Testament is definitely described as jealous on a number of occasions. That's why we wants Abraham's people, the Hebrews, to worship no other god than him. The point though, was the question of why they would portray God as having human characteristics like anger and jealousy which are not seen as really good traits. Is it the case that these were seen as good traits back then? More likely it is the case that they wanted to portray God in a way that would make people fear and obey Him.

But then with the New Testament and Christianity, God is portrayed as loving and caring, supremely good. I think that this demonstrates an evolution in the way that human beings view morality and ethics. At first it was thought that the way to make people behave is to threaten them with punishment, and strike fear into their hearts. Then it was learned that the better way is to forgive, love, and care for people. And we can see that they went from the ten commandments of "thou shalt not..." to the single golden rule of what to do, love your neighbour. I think it's far more effective to encourage cooperation and morality through kindness than it is to try and force morality through threats of punishment.

Would you be interested in a more focused discussion of the gods and the evolution of this kind of thinking? — Athena

What did you have in mind, a new thread? If so, I'd participate.

I claim a moral is a matter of cause and effect and that makes good moral judgment a matter of logic. — Athena

i really cannot see what you mean when you say morality is a matter of cause and effect.

But if we think God is in control and what is happening is His plan, then this planet will loose most of the life on it. — Athena

This is an example of fate, determinism, which is not an example of believing in God, rather it's the contrary. A religious person cannot look at the effects of the actions of atheists as God's plan.

I really like your last sentence! :cheer: what a yummy thing to contemplate! What is the spirit of the Christian who ignores knowledge, and the spirit of the pagan who thinks that knowledge is vitally important? Also, what is the source of spirit? When I felt my mother had betrayed me by lying to me about Santa Claus, she lovingly explained Santa Claus is the spirit of Christmas. The spirit of Christmas is clearly manifested by thoughts and actions.

Morale is that high spirited feeling we have when we believe we are doing the right thing. The American spirit is that high morale, and a high mortality is essential to our liberty and democracy. So what would you say is the source of spirit? — Athena

Really, I think spirit is inherent within all living things as the source of living action, vitality. But it needs to be cultured, directed, otherwise it will go in any random way. I believe there are two features to guidance. One is to stop the inclination toward action, and this is will power. In conscious human actions It goes against the spirit, preventing rashness and ill-tempered actions, encouraging prudence. The other is knowledge and this allows that the spirit which has been brought under control through will power might be pointed in the right direction.

I was impressed by what you wrote i. I am starting to wonder if the reason the word schizophrenia crept into your sentence is because you are interested in the way in which the person who has schizophrenia has a more direct experience of the unconscious than people who rely simply upon the rational conscious mind. Do you think that is a more true picture of where you stand? — Jack Cummins

It’s a interesting subject in relation to the unconscious mind, but it seems a bit off topic.

I think that the subject of the unconscious mind and schizophrenia are relevant to the current discussion. That is because when we consider the nature of knowledge as a basis for truth it is questionable where this knowledge comes from or the variety of sources. Many philosophers have spoken of the role of reason and of empirical evidence. However, there is also the whole means of intuition.

The subject of schizophrenia comes in by the way of consciousness of intuition and knowledge of truth outside of sensory experiences. While the term schizophrenia is a label and can even be challenged, it does refer to a cluster of experiences which are often difficult for the individual. In particular, the person may hear voices and have other hallucinatory experiences which do not make sense to others. Often these are of a negative nature for the person, but in some instances it is possible that the person can be seeing aspects of wisdom which others cannot see.

This is a fairly tricky area because in many cases the nature of thought, because the people experiencing them are likely to take them in a literal way. I am thinking of the symbolic language of the unconscious which can be tapped upon as a means of intuition.I am also thinking of dimensions spoken of in religious texts, such as angels as divine messengers, and demons. This relates to the subject of mythology, as discussed with Athena and the understanding of myth expressed in the writings of Joseph Campbell.

Even though I have worked with people diagnosed with schizophrenia, I have not been aware of any professionals encouraging the individuals to think in that way. That is because it be unsafe and likely to result in colluding with delusions stemming from the voices or other hallucinatory. experiences

However, I have seen individuals recovering from a psychotic episode and seeing the hallucinations retrospectively as personal mythic truths.

Often these are of a negative nature for the person, but in some instances it is possible that the person can be seeing aspects of wisdom which others cannot see. — Jack Cummins

This is a key point which I made earlier in the thread. You say "these are of a negative nature", referring to these thoughts, or "voices". But we need to put "negative" into some context, some form of scale providing standards of better or worse, in order to validate that judgement. Commonly we would use social conventions, the norms of our culture, as the standard for such a judgement. Then "outside the norms of our culture" might stand as the basis for a judgement of "negative". However, we see as a fact, evidenced by empirical experience, the existence of genius for example, that the scale which allows for "outside the norms of our culture" extends both ways outside, to the negative and to the positive. Therefore if we judge a certain type of thinking as "outside the norms of our culture", we need to devise some other principle whereby we can distinguish negative from positive.

Here's an unorthodox way of looking at intuition. Intuition is like an inner voice, which inspires one to act in any particular way; the actions might even be sort of random. Some people might even argue that this inner voice comes from God, or aliens, or whatever type of being which acts to inspire one through the internal mechanisms of the human being, rather than externally.

As soon as we are born into the world, we are taught to quell this internal force to act, and listen only to the external voices. The external voices are the voices of reason, and the internal voice must be subdued in order that we can be rational beings. "Normal" childhood development consists of suppressing the internal voice with the conscious mind receiving its information externally, and developing the alternative, the voice of reason. Before the child can even get a glimpse of what is going on, the internal voice is suppressed to the extent that the conscious, reasonable, "normal" mind does not even remember the existence of the internal voice. Consequentially "normal" people are not very intuitive. However, in some cases the internal voice is not so suppressed as it is in other cases and this allows for idiosyncrasies.

I have a basic view which is similar to yours in your second rather than first one. However, the reason I spoke of voices in a negative way is because I have seen people devastated by voices. The voices can be commanded them to kill others and many have followed these. The many detained in forensic psychiatric unit is evidence of this. Also, I have seen others extremely distressed.

My own authentic view is that the matter is not black and white at all. A lot of the psychiatrists are so quick to want to medicate at the slightest trace of an unusual idea or belief. The nurses can also be very quick to condemn anything which seems out of the norm, and this included religious and non religious staff. Often, at work I used to say things which they looked a bit puzzled about. I think if I was working in mental health care at the moment and told some of the discussions I am having on this site they would query my sanity.

I am inclined to think that a lot of what is manifesting in mental illness in our times is related to deep levels of suffering and conflict in the mass psyche of humanity. I really don't think that there are any easy solutions.I am not against psychiatric medicine but think that a deeper level of healing wisdom is also needed on many levels.

I probably summarised Hillman's argument very badly, especially as I don't have a copy of it to quote or refer to. What I probably failed to show was that he is talking about transformation on an inner level, not in terms of outer goals. James Hillman is influenced by Jung and wrote his books on archetypal psychology and is concerned more with the inner journey.

This is in contrast to the whole way in which I have seen recovery based mental health care which is structured around clear objective goals.
That is one of the difficulties I found with cognitive behavioral therapy, which is all about achieving clear goals and misses out the on what is going on with the unconscious.

When I was writing a paper on art therapy with suicidal clients my tutor spoke of enabling people to live without hope. Both the idea of setting clear objective goals or trying to live without hope both seem extremes. Probably the process of trying to sort out our lives is the most we can do. It is good that you found happiness even though you were grieving.

I liked your reference, about a week ago, to your real snakes, because sometimes there seem to be more snakes than ladders, but I do try to hold on to a sense of humour. That was especially important when working in mental health care. — Jack Cummins

I am so excited by what you have said and a book I was told about, that I don't know where to begin. The title of the book is "The Body Keeps the Score" ( subtitle, Brain mind and body in the healing of trauma). I think we have it all wrong to believe all our thinking goes on in our heads. We should understand our bodies as part of our brains, not separate from them.

Education in Athens was more physical and atoned to how what we see and hear affects us. It was also about building character. Technology and a trade is what slaves and the landless learned, and they were not exactly freemen because they had to toil for their survival. Education for the aristocrats was about our physical experience of life. Sort of like in French schools where lunch time is considered a class in how to live, with gourmet meals, served the children as they would be served in a fine restaurant and the teacher sitting with them to guide their social experience. Get the body in the right feeling and that will manifest in a good life. What we have been doing undermines a higher society and turns it into a grimy working-class society, where abuses of the working class taken for granted.

You are young and you are thinking and learning. I am rather excited by what you might achieve.

Oh yes, a sense of humor is essential! When we stop laughing we are in serious trouble. Perhaps a lack of laughter and being too serious is an indicator of being in Hades? How does the body feel in Hades? Is there a way to change how the body feels? If the body feels secure and hopeful, will the person's mind receive this information and feed back acknowledgment of well being?

The god of the Old Testament is definitely described as jealous on a number of occasions. That's why we wants Abraham's people, the Hebrews, to worship no other god than him. The point though, was the question of why they would portray God as having human characteristics like anger and jealousy which are not seen as really good traits. Is it the case that these were seen as good traits back then? More likely it is the case that they wanted to portray God in a way that would make people fear and obey Him.

But then with the New Testament and Christianity, God is portrayed as loving and caring, supremely good. I think that this demonstrates an evolution in the way that human beings view morality and ethics. At first it was thought that the way to make people behave is to threaten them with punishment, and strike fear into their hearts. Then it was learned that the better way is to forgive, love, and care for people. And we can see that they went from the ten commandments of "thou shalt not..." to the single golden rule of what to do, love your neighbour. I think it's far more effective to encourage cooperation and morality through kindness than it is to try and force morality through threats of punishment.

i really cannot see what you mean when you say morality is a matter of cause and effect.

This is an example of fate, determinism, which is not an example of believing in God, rather it's the contrary. A religious person cannot look at the effects of the actions of atheists as God's plan.

I really like your last sentence! :cheer: what a yummy thing to contemplate! What is the spirit of the Christian who ignores knowledge, and the spirit of the pagan who thinks that knowledge is vitally important? Also, what is the source of spirit? When I felt my mother had betrayed me by lying to me about Santa Claus, she lovingly explained Santa Claus is the spirit of Christmas. The spirit of Christmas is clearly manifested by thoughts and actions.

Really, I think spirit is inherent within all living things as the source of living action, vitality. But it needs to be cultured, directed, otherwise it will go in any random way. I believe there are two features to guidance. One is to stop the inclination toward action, and this is will power. In conscious human actions It goes against the spirit, preventing rashness and ill-tempered actions, encouraging prudence. The other is knowledge and this allows that the spirit which has been brought under control through will power might be pointed in the right direction. — Metaphysician Undercover

I can not handle discussing too many different things at the same time. This thread is great, and another one for discussing the gods is very desirable but should perhaps wait. And what you said of spirit is very interesting as the book "Mayan Factor" jumps to mind. I would love to participate in a thread about spirit, and perhaps that needs to wait too? I want to do it all now, but maybe that is too much?

I am so bored with discussing the God of Abraham! And your account of Him switching from a fearsome, war god to a loving and forgiving god, is missing some very important information. That transition did not happen with the writing of the new testament. It happened with the improved ability to fill our stomachs. Never has this god been so good to us as He has been since the 20th century. Advancement in farming that has ended famine in most places and advances in medicine that means most children live to adulthood and our life expectancy has doubled, has nurtured the idea that God is more loving than jealous, fearsome, and punishing. Not that long ago, people were beating the devil out of their children. In my lifetime Satanism became very popular and witchcraft is still very popular. In adolescence, we are more attracted to these superstitions than when are more mature and have a better sense of personal power. That makes the increase in our life expectancy very much a part of focusing on a loving God instead of a fearsome one and Satan. Please, we must not forget history. The history of Christianity is a history of wars, superstition, and abuse.

It is amusing that you cannot see what you mean when you say morality is a matter of cause and effect when for me it is as obvious as night and day. How can that be? How can we both be so sure of what we know and disagree?

Everything must be pleasing to mother nature because when we go against her, things go wrong. This does not make the earth quake or volcanos spew smoke and lava, but if we pollute and land and water we harm life. If we cause the extermination of animal, insect, and plant species, we unset the balance of nature. We may be destroying our planet. Moral, this behavior needs to change.

We used to read moral stories to our children and then ask, what is the moral of that story. The moral of "The Little Red Hen" is if you want to share the bread, you should share the effort of growing, harvesting, milling, and then baking the bread. The moral of "The Little Engine that Could" is he made it over the mountain because he didn't give up. The moral of "The Fox and the Grapes" is he didn't get the grapes because he gave up. You that young woman down the street who has a baby and no one to support her is you need to take steps so this does not happen to you and the child. Can you think of one moral that does not have consequences?

Well, "plan" may not be the best word to use for armageddon but the Bible does tell us that terrible things will happen and Christians accept this without taking the responsibility for it. If this is not God's plan then what is a better word we can use? We are speaking of a god who could provide us a garden of Eden and who knows what we would be like if we felt safe and secure and loved along with everyone around us? We have a God who can make miracles happen and people who passionately pray for miracles while this God may or may not answer their prayers, a God who allowed the holocaust and famines and pestilence. How loving is that? We punish abusive parents and give this god a free pass to do or not do as He pleases. That is nuts. If God is not going to resolve problems for us, perhaps we should take that responsibility and question why would a god punish us for wanting the knowledge to do that?

What gods other than the God of Abraham got personally involved with our lives?

It is ,of course, difficult for thinkers to go beyond the head. Perhaps there are many energy centres for perception, including chakras, and the Chinese idea of meridian points.

My own authentic view is that the matter is not black and white at all. A lot of the psychiatrists are so quick to want to medicate at the slightest trace of an unusual idea or belief. The nurses can also be very quick to condemn anything which seems out of the norm, and this included religious and non religious staff. Often, at work I used to say things which they looked a bit puzzled about. I think if I was working in mental health care at the moment and told some of the discussions I am having on this site they would query my sanity. — Jack Cummins

I believe our society has a tendency to streamline normalcy more than what might be necessary. So students are funneled through a narrow passageway. The problem with not giving them a wider berth is that once they are outside the straight and narrow they are labeled and then there is no incentive for the individual to go back into the confines of normalcy. This might be like being shunned, and then they will just drift further away. So we have illnesses like ADHT for example, and it's difficult to grasp how pointing out to a child that they have a mental illness like this, will affect the child, and also difficult to know if medication is good for this child in the long run.

I see a real difficulty in defining "the norm". And even once "the norm" is defined, isn't it still expected as "normal", that some people will fall outside these boundaries? Is it right to use medications in an attempt to bring people back within the boundaries? Of course if a person is violent and a threat to others, medication to calm the person is required. But in a case like ADHT isn't it more like the medication is just being used in an attempt to keep the person within the stipulated boundaries of normalcy?

I am inclined to think that a lot of what is manifesting in mental illness in our times is related to deep levels of suffering and conflict in the mass psyche of humanity. I really don't think that there are any easy solutions.I am not against psychiatric medicine but think that a deeper level of healing wisdom is also needed on many levels. — Jack Cummins

I tend to think that we take "the mass psyche of humanity" for granted. We take it for granted that there is a united humanity, that there is a normal human being, and such things, when in reality these things are only created through moral effort. So when we take it for granted, we do not put in the effort required to keep the psyche healthy and together. And this is when things start to fall apart.

It is amusing that you cannot see what you mean when you say morality is a matter of cause and effect when for me it is as obvious as night and day. How can that be? How can we both be so sure of what we know and disagree?

Everything must be pleasing to mother nature because when we go against her, things go wrong. This does not make the earth quake or volcanos spew smoke and lava, but if we pollute and land and water we harm life. If we cause the extermination of animal, insect, and plant species, we unset the balance of nature. We may be destroying our planet. Moral, this behavior needs to change. — Athena

I still don't see what you mean by morality being a matter of cause and effect. To me, morality is foreseeing a bad thing before it occurs and preventing it, or foreseeing a good thing, and encouraging it. I suppose you could call this cause and effect, in a way. But we cannot look at bad things which have already happened, and say that this must change, because it's too late, those bad things have already happened, and cannot be changed. All we can do is look ahead toward the future and try to do what we think is right, and avoid doing what we think is wrong.

I totally agree with you about labeling and the book "The Body Keeps the Score" by Bessel Van Der Kolk, M.D. made the point by storytelling. This book is shocking to me because it makes us aware of how little we knew in 1980 about mental conditions and we were treating people with treatments that sometimes made things worse. That doesn't give me a lot of faith in what we think we know today, but I have faith that research will lead to better understanding and better treatments, and hopefully much better situations in our schools.

My great-grandson was put on mediation that turned him into a zombie and killed his interest in anything. Fortunately, that did not last too long. What we are doing in schools is insane! Does this fit in this thread? Men like Bill Gates are very influential in education and their expertise is not about being human or about culture and society. Their expertise is technology. We are preparing the young for a technological society, not a human society and this has encouraged dehumanizing education. Nature loves variety and perhaps we should too and for goodness sake encourage children to be active and physical because they will learn better if they are.

I think you totally get morals are about knowing the consequence of actions so I do not understand your argument? What you said is exactly why we should be aware that a moral is a matter of cause of effect, and no amount of prayers will change the consequence of a bad action. Going to war will have bad consequences and believing a god wants us to do that unless we have no alternative to fighting for our lives, is just wrong. It most certainly is wrong to invade and destroy a country and not feel responsible for the human suffering and destruction. Today we are becoming aware of the cost of our action in the US of slavery and destroying the Native American tribes and taking their land. We are gaining awareness of the need to care for our plant, but we are so far behind because of relying on the Bible for an understanding of morals, instead of accepting a moral is a matter of cause and effect.

It is ,of course, difficult for thinkers to go beyond the head. Perhaps there are many energy centres for perception, including chakras, and the Chinese idea of meridian points. — Jack Cummins

I think you want to read "The Mayan Factor". It says things that are totally weird to our western thinking and it can be hard to get past that, especially when we are the only one we know who is interested in what Jose Arguelles is saying. But get this, the I Ching matrix fits perfectly in the center of the Mayan matrix and the meridian points are within the matrix.

Matrix | mathematics | Britannicawww.britannica.com › Science › Mathematics
Oct 29, 2020 — Matrix, a set of numbers arranged in rows and columns so as to form a rectangular array. The numbers are called the elements, or entries, of the matrix. Matrices have wide applications in engineering, physics, economics, and statistics as well as in various branches of mathematics. — Britannica

"The Mayan Factor" has both scientific and cultural significance. It can not be read and simply believed or not because it is culturally different and requires a person to be very open-minded. If a person is not open-minded, the book gets tossed in the fireplace and used for heat. Over the years I have read little parts of it again and again, and then I ignore it because the information is just too weird, but I have to keep returning to it and also the book "A Beginners Guild to Constructing the Universe" by Michael S. Schneider.

When I find people who might be interested in these books, I think we should avoid the distraction of politics and the craziness of what is going on now to see if we can have an understanding of cosmic forces which begins with math. The mystery of pi is mind-blowing. I don't know, are any of you on board with this? :rofl: So much of what we talk about seems relatively unimportant. I Ching includes a notion of heaven and earth blending and so does "The Mayan Factor".

Image result for heaven and earth blending I Ching
We speak of “moving heaven and Earth” as a metaphor in English for great effort towards a goal. According to Fu Xi's I Ching, an ancient Chinese divination method, we can metaphorically move heaven and Earth simply by changing our attitude, and in the process, pave the way for peace, success, and happiness. https://medium.com/@rascalvoyages/fu-xis-i-ching-on-how-to-move-heaven-and-earth-730848d14316#:~:text=We%20speak%20of%20%E2%80%9Cmoving%20heaven,peace%2C%20success%2C%20and%20happiness. — Rascal Voyages

I do agree that it is a big problem that certain ideas are imposed on us. Personally, I think that I was lucky when I was growing up because my family and teachers did allow me to be unique.

However, I have found that in some work situations that has not been the case. I think that I am the complete opposite to ADHD because I am able to immerse myself into tasks to the point where I cannot multitask at all. Also, I am sure I am not dyslexic but I think I am dyspraxia, because I have poor coordination, and difficulties with most physical tasks except art. I found some people extremely critical of me for these differences to the point where I got sick with stress and experienced depression.

I think that stress is a source of potential mental illnesses, including psychosis and mood disorders. Sometimes it is as if we are expected to be like machines and we cannot be. Also, being able to sleep is central to being able to function and not become unwell. Also, I do believe that we need to be given expressive outlets, especially the arts. Generally, I think that we need a society in which we are not expected to be robots, and one which is tolerant and open to creative, bohemian outsiders.

Thanks for the links. I think that I have looked at, but not read fully, 'The Mayan Factor,' in a library, as I love picking up all kinds of unusual books. I miss libraries so much, and just hope that they reopen at some point next year.

I went through a period while I was a student when I used to consult the I Ching on a regular basis and I used to have others in my college room using it. I found it helpful but I haven't used it in ages and don't think I even have my copy any longer. But I can remember asking all kinds of questions, but it was sometimes hard to frame them, and interpret the moving lines. The particular hexagram which I remember most was hexagram 23, splitting apart, because I always felt a bit troubled if I got that one.

I got the idea of using the I Ching from Jung's writings as I believed he used it. I think his understanding of it was that it gives rise to synchronicities, meaningful coincidences. I find the whole notion of synchronicity for understanding the way life manifests,and the whole area of precognition experiences. Actually, I had been thinking of starting a thread about the whole area of chance, but I will wait until this one fizzled out a bit more.

But getting back to the relevance of the I Ching for this thread I would say that consulting the I Ching is a way of getting intuitive knowledge. We can perceive underlying patterns beyond the surface.

By the way, I really enjoy creating threads. Some don't work out so well but it is about experimenting. I have not seen any by you, but you may have done so before I joined the forum. You have certainly made many great contributions to others' threads.

I think your explanation of the way I Ching works is reasonable. And now that you mention it, I don't think my copies of I Ching made it through the move? I may have to buy another. I also use virtue cards made a Bahia' woman and your explanation of why I Ching works, is perfect for why the virtue cards work. I have had many synchronicity experiences with both.

As for synchronicity being a part of our lives, my most memorable moment is when I walked into a secondhand book store looking for an old grade school textbook thinking it would immediately explain the set of American values every child was taught. :rofl: I found them but not that day and it was not as easy to find them as I expected. Instead, I found two books that set the course of my life. One is the "Anglo-German Problem" by Sarolea and the other was a copy of the 1917 "National Education Association Conference". The National Education Association was the result of needing to mobilize for the for the first world war and it explained the purpose of education and the need to adjust the purpose of education for war. there are many different explanations through many different speakers.

Since then I have added many more books to my collection. My books on the history of education are a fascinating way to study history. And as for me starting threads, yes, I started a few but they don't get attention. No one is prepared to discuss education and what it has to do with democracy. I bring up what I want to talk about in other threads, including yours. Everything I have said about morals and democracy in your threads is an expression of my sense of life purpose. When we have powerful synchronicity experiences seems as though our lives have divine purpose.