Obviously, it is an extremely sensitive area and I would not recommend staff self disclosing personal beliefs but I do think that mental health professionals need to listen to patients' struggles, rather than dismiss them. It is not very helpful if nurses and psychiatrists simply ignore the struggles over beliefs and philosophical questions and simply offer medication. — Jack Cummins
Your friends needed someone to help them through their rite of passage and thinking individuals who struggle need personal, private counseling, maybe a mistake. We might need a cultural awareness of what is true for all of us?Wikipedia – A rite of passage is a ritual event that marks a person’s transition from one status to another. Rites of passage explore and describe various notable milestones in an individual’s life, for any marked transitional stage, when one’s social status is altered. (This link comes with a video of Joseph Campbell's explanation). https://mensfellowship.net/rites-passage3/ — Joseph Campbell
↪Brett
You said,
'I imagine it's possible with someone with schizophrenia to apply their reason to their problems, and it would make sense to them, one step leading logically to the next, but it's based on irrationality, so it could no longer be called reason.'
From my understanding, even though you say that a person 'with schizophrenia' can use reason you are suggesting it is still based on irrationality. Actually, I think that all human beings have some contradictions between reason and lack of it, so schizophrenia has no bearing on the matter and did not need to be mentioned at all. — Jack Cummins
I believe that all religions attempt to culture an attitude of self-honesty. Whether they have an efficient method, or are successful, is another thing. — Metaphysician Undercover
"Good moral judgement" is insufficient for good moral actions. We all know that an individual might judge an action as wrong, yet still go through with it. This is why we need more than just to be educated in good moral principles, because such education does not necessitate good behaviour. That's what Socrates and Plato demonstrated in their refutation of the sophists who claimed to teach virtue for large sums of money. — Metaphysician Undercover
I think the God of Abraham religions are the most threatening because of the notion of a god having favorite people, which is connected to a notion that this god wants us to engage in wars that include us in His "power and glory". — Athena
Being virtuous requires knowledge of virtues so I would not agree with Socrates and his student, Plato, on this point. — Athena
"Logically" we can not know the right thing and do the wrong thing. It is illogical to do what will bring harm to ourselves and others. — Athena
Your argument is like ordering a glass of water and then complaining that it is not what you want when it is served warm. In 1958 we stopped transmitting the culture that we had put in place for a highly moral society that can enjoy liberty without authority above the people and without social problems, and we left moral training to the church. This was a huge mistake! — Athena
Science can just as easily be tied to morality. Research on poverty and human problems such as schizophrenia, or prejudice, etc. is tying science and morality together. A moral is a matter of cause and effect and that is why science is very important! — Athena
In 1958 we stopped transmitting the culture that we had put in place for a highly moral society that can enjoy liberty without authority above the people and without social problems, and we left moral training to the church. This was a huge mistake! — Athena
Bert, you are not understanding schizophrenia. — Athena
We should not assume the schizophrenic is working with good information. I argue with myself all the time and I think that is normal, especially when we receive conflicting information or we have one day off and a list of things we want to do and a list of things we should do, or we see that yummy chocolate cake and know we shouldn't eat it. But for a schizophrenic, the information they are working with can not always be tied to reality and their condition may isolate them adding social rejection to their problems. — Athena
The reason why they occurred was because they were in the office reading their Bibles and I was reading my philosophical books. — Jack Cummins
I’m not sure what you mean by this. The culture that you believe we stopped transmitting from 1958 was what, I presume, created the culture you valued up to that point. From then on it was corrupted by the church and it’s morals. Are you referring to the United States or countries in general? — Brett
That ancient God is a bit weird, "jealous" for example, and angry such that He might smite you. In those times I think they were assigning to God human emotions, which it was later realized that a well-tempered person ought to control. This might be an indication of how human attitude toward different emotions evolves. Jealousy seemed like it might be considered a good trait back then, but now it is not considered to be a good emotion. In any case, human emotions were attributed to God. You might notice that Jesus rebelled against the misrepresentation of the relationship between people and God. In Christianity most the human characteristics of God are removed, except love, but we're still left with a weird relationship between Jesus and God. — Metaphysician Undercover
Being virtuous does require knowledge, this is not what is disputed by Plato. What is disputed is the idea that knowledge is sufficient for virtue. Knowledge is necessary, but not sufficient. We will sometimes go ahead and engage in activity which we know is wrong. — Metaphysician Undercover
Since we very clearly can go ahead and act in ways that are illogical, doing something which we know is illogical (maybe buying a lottery ticket as a simple example), I think we might find that virtue is not based in logic. Plato introduced a tripartite person. To the body/mind division he added spirit or passion as a medium between the two. Spirit, or passion, is responsible for action, later becoming known as will, and in Plato's theory the spirit can ally with the mind, to ensure that we act rationally, but also the spirit might ally with the body which would influence us to act irrationally. So in the instances when we know the right thing but do the wrong thing, the spirit, which is the cause of action, is aligned with the body rather than the mind. — Metaphysician Undercover
I once read a fantastic book on the subject of suicide by James Hillman, called, Suicide and the Soul. Hillman speaks of the suicidal search as being one a wish to end the life one is living, and have a transformed life. He stresses that the art is for this not have to be in the concrete act of suicide itself, but the suicidal urge in itself as making way for transformation on some level in one's life. — Jack Cummins
I think it was common for humanity to fear an angry god. It is not always the fault of humans if a god/goddess is angry but just the same we better do what we can to make the god/goddess happy because bad things happen when a god/goddess is upset. But I don't think jealousy was a common trait of gods and goddesses. Oh my goodness, the more I think on this the more interesting the subject becomes! I don't think Zeus was a jealous god but his wife Hera sure was! Another point of interest here is Hera did terrible things to female humans who Zeus was interested in, but she did not punish the whole of humanity. — Athena
Would you be interested in a more focused discussion of the gods and the evolution of this kind of thinking? — Athena
I claim a moral is a matter of cause and effect and that makes good moral judgment a matter of logic. — Athena
But if we think God is in control and what is happening is His plan, then this planet will loose most of the life on it. — Athena
I really like your last sentence! :cheer: what a yummy thing to contemplate! What is the spirit of the Christian who ignores knowledge, and the spirit of the pagan who thinks that knowledge is vitally important? Also, what is the source of spirit? When I felt my mother had betrayed me by lying to me about Santa Claus, she lovingly explained Santa Claus is the spirit of Christmas. The spirit of Christmas is clearly manifested by thoughts and actions.
Morale is that high spirited feeling we have when we believe we are doing the right thing. The American spirit is that high morale, and a high mortality is essential to our liberty and democracy. So what would you say is the source of spirit? — Athena
I was impressed by what you wrote i. I am starting to wonder if the reason the word schizophrenia crept into your sentence is because you are interested in the way in which the person who has schizophrenia has a more direct experience of the unconscious than people who rely simply upon the rational conscious mind. Do you think that is a more true picture of where you stand? — Jack Cummins
Often these are of a negative nature for the person, but in some instances it is possible that the person can be seeing aspects of wisdom which others cannot see. — Jack Cummins
I probably summarised Hillman's argument very badly, especially as I don't have a copy of it to quote or refer to. What I probably failed to show was that he is talking about transformation on an inner level, not in terms of outer goals. James Hillman is influenced by Jung and wrote his books on archetypal psychology and is concerned more with the inner journey.
This is in contrast to the whole way in which I have seen recovery based mental health care which is structured around clear objective goals.
That is one of the difficulties I found with cognitive behavioral therapy, which is all about achieving clear goals and misses out the on what is going on with the unconscious.
When I was writing a paper on art therapy with suicidal clients my tutor spoke of enabling people to live without hope. Both the idea of setting clear objective goals or trying to live without hope both seem extremes. Probably the process of trying to sort out our lives is the most we can do. It is good that you found happiness even though you were grieving.
I liked your reference, about a week ago, to your real snakes, because sometimes there seem to be more snakes than ladders, but I do try to hold on to a sense of humour. That was especially important when working in mental health care. — Jack Cummins
The god of the Old Testament is definitely described as jealous on a number of occasions. That's why we wants Abraham's people, the Hebrews, to worship no other god than him. The point though, was the question of why they would portray God as having human characteristics like anger and jealousy which are not seen as really good traits. Is it the case that these were seen as good traits back then? More likely it is the case that they wanted to portray God in a way that would make people fear and obey Him.
But then with the New Testament and Christianity, God is portrayed as loving and caring, supremely good. I think that this demonstrates an evolution in the way that human beings view morality and ethics. At first it was thought that the way to make people behave is to threaten them with punishment, and strike fear into their hearts. Then it was learned that the better way is to forgive, love, and care for people. And we can see that they went from the ten commandments of "thou shalt not..." to the single golden rule of what to do, love your neighbour. I think it's far more effective to encourage cooperation and morality through kindness than it is to try and force morality through threats of punishment.
i really cannot see what you mean when you say morality is a matter of cause and effect.
This is an example of fate, determinism, which is not an example of believing in God, rather it's the contrary. A religious person cannot look at the effects of the actions of atheists as God's plan.
I really like your last sentence! :cheer: what a yummy thing to contemplate! What is the spirit of the Christian who ignores knowledge, and the spirit of the pagan who thinks that knowledge is vitally important? Also, what is the source of spirit? When I felt my mother had betrayed me by lying to me about Santa Claus, she lovingly explained Santa Claus is the spirit of Christmas. The spirit of Christmas is clearly manifested by thoughts and actions.
Really, I think spirit is inherent within all living things as the source of living action, vitality. But it needs to be cultured, directed, otherwise it will go in any random way. I believe there are two features to guidance. One is to stop the inclination toward action, and this is will power. In conscious human actions It goes against the spirit, preventing rashness and ill-tempered actions, encouraging prudence. The other is knowledge and this allows that the spirit which has been brought under control through will power might be pointed in the right direction. — Metaphysician Undercover
My own authentic view is that the matter is not black and white at all. A lot of the psychiatrists are so quick to want to medicate at the slightest trace of an unusual idea or belief. The nurses can also be very quick to condemn anything which seems out of the norm, and this included religious and non religious staff. Often, at work I used to say things which they looked a bit puzzled about. I think if I was working in mental health care at the moment and told some of the discussions I am having on this site they would query my sanity. — Jack Cummins
I am inclined to think that a lot of what is manifesting in mental illness in our times is related to deep levels of suffering and conflict in the mass psyche of humanity. I really don't think that there are any easy solutions.I am not against psychiatric medicine but think that a deeper level of healing wisdom is also needed on many levels. — Jack Cummins
It is amusing that you cannot see what you mean when you say morality is a matter of cause and effect when for me it is as obvious as night and day. How can that be? How can we both be so sure of what we know and disagree?
Everything must be pleasing to mother nature because when we go against her, things go wrong. This does not make the earth quake or volcanos spew smoke and lava, but if we pollute and land and water we harm life. If we cause the extermination of animal, insect, and plant species, we unset the balance of nature. We may be destroying our planet. Moral, this behavior needs to change. — Athena
It is ,of course, difficult for thinkers to go beyond the head. Perhaps there are many energy centres for perception, including chakras, and the Chinese idea of meridian points. — Jack Cummins
Matrix | mathematics | Britannicawww.britannica.com › Science › Mathematics
Oct 29, 2020 — Matrix, a set of numbers arranged in rows and columns so as to form a rectangular array. The numbers are called the elements, or entries, of the matrix. Matrices have wide applications in engineering, physics, economics, and statistics as well as in various branches of mathematics. — Britannica
Image result for heaven and earth blending I Ching
We speak of “moving heaven and Earth” as a metaphor in English for great effort towards a goal. According to Fu Xi's I Ching, an ancient Chinese divination method, we can metaphorically move heaven and Earth simply by changing our attitude, and in the process, pave the way for peace, success, and happiness. https://medium.com/@rascalvoyages/fu-xis-i-ching-on-how-to-move-heaven-and-earth-730848d14316#:~:text=We%20speak%20of%20%E2%80%9Cmoving%20heaven,peace%2C%20success%2C%20and%20happiness. — Rascal Voyages
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