So I suppose you support a socialist economic model with a jobs guarantee? — Garth

Good question. What I am pretty sure about, leaning on Rawls, Nozick and Marx, that there are some kind of feeling for justice in our DNA. Probably has been a good model since huntergatherer days. A good work should be rewarded. After all, grades in school is a fairly accepted system. Feminists strive for "equal pay for equal work". So there is - after all - some kind of feeling that good work should be rewarded. You may call it Meritocracy. Growing up in striving lower middle class, I got that in my upbringing as in my genes. Having done the class journey to a semi-wealthy academical environment it is NOT so obvious. Simply said, the concept of Property, paramount to libertarians do not exactly promote meritocracy, since Property primarely is inherited. Having a semi-successful father (who made the 2nd stage of our family's class journey) I have had some short cuts from that.

But yeah, I am not all that fond of this "liberty" thing. Nozick made a big case for capitalism being "organic", but a society that is not all that all about choices could be just as flexible, I think. My dream is - everyone does what one is supposed to do rather than want to do. Guys in my newer, richer neighborhood is running around trying to get gut feelings for what they "really want to do". I had a bit of that too, and that really just confused me.

Let me give you an Utopia: Everyone is born with personality traits. Parents dont fiddle around with that just gives their kids a lot of love, w/o pushing anyone in any direction. You enter school as a tabula rasa. Teachers, rather than stuffing info into kids, monitors the kids and nudge them in directions where the kids perform well and get energy from that subject. You don't care about class, gender, skin color or whatever, you end up in classes where people share the brain. And you specializes in that.

Then, when ready you do not search for a job. Your search for a place to live. Then, the guys who during school have shown a talent to coordinate people will assign you a job that you do. That is in line with your personality and education. Some jobs, highly specialized, like medical doctors, those jobs will be for the guys that had the best personality to do that job, they will be doctors. Or other specialized professions that require one to build up competence for just that. But there is a heck of a lot of jobs that the right guy learns in no time.

And then, you get paid as you get rewarded in school or in a large organization. Someone rate what you have done and you get paid for the job done rather than the result.

I suppose this vision is far closer to Socialism than the Invisible Hand... so yeah, I suppose I do support some kind of socialism. But a daughter or son in an academic home envisioning their life´s meaning to be a SJW would not thrive in this environment. This is more a Chinese or Stalin like system.

Right, like calling an injury a murder without evidence. — Brett

We’re all glad you’re here to make sure the record is set straight. Just a straight-shooter seeking the truth objectively. :rofl:

What a stupid comment.

In reaction to Trump his denouncement of the violence last Wednesday. :rofl: — Benkei

As I said earlier, Trump will f**k his lunatic supporters in the end. He naturally doesn't mean anything he says. Hopefully the idiots will get the memo, but it's unlikely.

And of course the lies keep on coming, like that he called immediately the national guard to intervene (which actually happened I guess after 1 1/2 hours by the secretary of the army...or someone like that in the administration).

So why was Capitol Hill taken over?

D.C. officials knew of the planned protests and had requested some assistance to help when the "first amendment demonstrations" were planned for January 5 and 6, McCarthy said. Based on this request, officials called up 340 National Guardsmen to help in the peaceful protests. The guardsmen were assigned mainly to traffic control, Metro crowd control, some logistics support and a 40-member quick reaction force to be based at Joint Base Andrews in Maryland.

"No other requests were made," the Army secretary said.

And you? — Ansiktsburk

I am not complaining that people should go to work instead of invoking their right to protest (subject to reasonable constraints of time and place). You made that remark, so you practice what you preach. I preach something different.

Young politicians who are interested in the legacy of Trump:

And secondly, the polarization will thrive, even without Trump. Nothing will change that. — ssu

Hasn't Trumpism or cult-politics proven to be a failed strategy to maintain power? The Republican Party lost the White House and the majority in both chambers of Congress in only 4 years. People like Howley and Cruz may be power-hungry but they're not cult leaders who can spin a web of fantasies and lies that can capture Trump supporter's apparent appetite for faith-based leadership.

QAnon wasn't generated by Trump, though he was the original focal point. It's an internet phenomenon. I think it's partly a stress response. It explains how Trump isn't the idiot he seems to be. He's in on a semi-divine mission to save children from sex trafficking and cannibalism.

Conspiracy theories give a sense stability and meaning in a crazy world because 'we understand what's really going on and how this is headed toward a great awakening.'

Stress is the fuel, so whether that group endures as political power waiting to be exploited, depends on the economy, the pandemic resolution, etc. If another 911 happened, that might cement it. If Trump is assassinated, that would transform it.

Without stress, it might just smolder into the dust until it's resurrected in the next crisis.

My dream is - everyone does what one is supposed to do rather than want to do. — Ansiktsburk

But what one is supposed to do would have to take into account what one wants to do - since you're probably less effective at doing something you don't want. Markets are a decently well working cybernetic system to get that kind of result in some circumstances. That's why market economies have historically had the edge over planned ones. Of course, that does not mean this will always be the case.

This is more a Chinese or Stalin like system. — Ansiktsburk

What about the dangers of concentrated power though? Some individualism might be necessary to prevent someone capturing the system and making it work for their personal benefit.

I spent the evening glued to the news and was disappointed with the reactionary response to the protest, which not only condemned the violence, but also the spirit. All that hogwash about an assault on “the citadel of liberty” and "democracy" was laughable, especially given that for the last 4 years we’ve been taught that violent protest was the surest expression of the voiceless. Perhaps if the Trumpers burned down innocent people’s businesses and looted Target the politico-media class would paint a different picture.

For once it was aimed at the guilty. Seeing the picture of lawmakers cowering behind their benches and their armed guards reminded me that these are the people that send young men and women to war. (“Lawmaker” is a specious term. They do not write our laws—hell they don’t even read them—they just sign whatever lands at their desk, more evidence that this “citadel of liberty” is a citadel of incompetence and corruption). And until now, our lawmakers have been mostly insulated from the pestilence they’ve let loose upon the country.

It's disgusting to suggest there's moral equivalence here with BLM protesters. There's evidence of police brutality of minorities, at the very least anecdotal, there is no evidence whatsoever of the election having been stolen - not even anecdotal. Giving voice to lies as opposed to truth. Fighting for justice and fairness is moral, fighting against the truth is immoral.

Unfortunately, even this forum has its share of morons.

I spent the evening glued to the news and was disappointed with the reactionary response to the protest, which not only condemned the violence, but also the spirit. — NOS4A2

The spirit was Trumpers believing the lie that the election was stolen from them and wanting to do something about it. Some violence was preplanned, apparently, and it seems that others just went along with the herd.

All that hogwash about an assault on “the citadel of liberty” and "democracy" was laughable, especially given that for the last 4 years we’ve been taught that violent protest was the surest expression of the voiceless. — NOS4A2

Surest in what sense? Violent protests are typically regarded as the expression of the desperate. I'm not sure that a handful of gullible attention seeking oddballs like horn-guy truly qualify as desperate, at least compared to BLM protesters. They were yelling things like "this is our house," so must have felt some sense of entitlement.

Perhaps if the Trumpers burned down innocent people’s businesses and looted Target the politico-media class would paint a different picture. — NOS4A2

Of course, I would imagine that they'd be ridiculed as hypocrites and not accused of being insurrectionists at all.

So what's the likelihood of a second impeachment with a conviction that prohibits Trump from ever holding a public office again to ensure he's removed from any 2024 election?

Alaska Sen. Lisa Murkowski calls on President Trump to resign, questions her future as a Republican

Maybe there will be more than just Romney who would vote to convict this time.

Republican senator: White House aides say Trump was “delighted” as Capitol was stormed

Presumably another who will.

Before 1/20/21, chances of impeachment are slim--just because such a proceeding is too time-consuming. I doubt if the House & Senate could get themselves organized to perform a summary impeachment. As for felony convictions, there's tax evasion and fraud, a New York State criminal case from which the shit stain cannot pardon himself should he be found guilty.

Trump will remain a dangerous person after 1/20; he should be put in a strait jacket and transferred from the White House to a high security psychiatric facility for treatment of extreme delusional thinking. Perhaps something along the lines of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. They can take his running dog lackeys with him.

Perhaps something along the lines of One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. They can take his running dog lackeys with him. — Bitter Crank

They should build a replica oval office and put him in it.

Trump’s been banned from Twitter.

LOL.

Republican senator: White House aides say Trump was “delighted” as Capitol was stormed — Michael

Presumably because he genuinely, heart-of-hearts believed that this mob really would overthrow the Government and that he would be staying on as President for another term. And if he was 'confused' it was because those around him couldn't see this as an obvious fact.

As I said upthread, that Trump is delusional is obvious, but the fact that 70 million odd people buy into his delusion is another thing altogether. That's the really worrying thing.

Wonder if he’ll just switch to the POTUS account?

He’s only ever tweeted via therealdonaldtrump. I don’t know if there is an ‘official’ POTUS twitter feed. In any case, I think that in effect Donald Trump is banned off Twitter for good. That’s going to bother him a lot more than the threat of impeachment.

Wherefore President Trump, by such conduct, has demonstrated that he will remain a threat to national security, democracy, and the Constitution if allowed to remain in office, and has acted in a manner grossly incompatible with self-governance and the rule of law. President Trump thus warrants impeachment and trial, removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust, or profit under the United States. — CNN, Articles of Impeachment, Excerpt

Parler, Trump terrorists' alternative social media platform is currently unavailable on both Apple and Android. Next to go, I reckon. Beautiful.

When I spoke about respecting the office I simply meant taking the example of President-Elect Biden:

"He exceeded even my worst notions about him. He's been an embarrassment to the country, embarrassed us around the world. He's not worthy to hold that office," Biden said.

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/01/08/politics/biden-trump-inauguration/index.html

Name - calling is not what is needed here, and is a kind of verbal violence. That is all.

Senior Trump Official: We Were Wrong, He’s a ‘Fascist’

This is confirmation of so much that everyone has said for years now — things that a lot of us thought were hyperbolic. We’d say, ‘Trump’s not a fascist,’ or ‘He’s not a wannabe dictator.’ Now, it’s like, ‘Well, what do you even say in response to that now?’

Took your time.

Mass delusions of the political kind are quite common. We socialists in American engage in delusional thinking just about every day. In this we share delusional thinking with people who think that through hard work and inspiration they will become rich, maybe as rich as Elon Musk or Bill Gates. Or that they have a good chance of winning the lottery. There is the delusion that Democrats will deliver heaven and the Republicans will deliver hell (or visa versa). There's the delusion, shared by millions, that vaccinations are part of a conspiracy of Satanic proportions (a la QAnon), ad nauseam.

Trump is perhaps delusional, or perhaps he is fiendishly clever. I tend to think it's the former because fiendish cleverness requires a lot of cognitive horse power, which we have not seen much evidence of in Trump. He isn't stupid (presumably) but he's no stable genius either.

Part of Donald Trumps very large problem is that he spurned proper etiquette. Other presidents may have been delusional, but they minded their 'Ps and Qs'. (Nixon was a crook, but his corrupt practices were outsourced and performed at night, the way skullduggery is supposed to be done.) They played their part properly. Trump did not -- and it would appear that he had not paid enough attention to know what "proper" was for an elected high public official. Manipulating the masses is, of course, de rigueur, and he knew how to do that but it's supposed to be subtle -- not a travesty.

His biggest delusion was his sense of entitlement to the presidency. I suppose he thought of it as a lifetime job. A lot of problems have been caused by people thinking they were in for life.

Worse than Trump alone are the groups like the Proud Boys, QAnon, and millions of demented Republicans who have a symbiotic relationship with Trump. Even if we lynched Donald tomorrow, his followers would remain at large and in a position to cause more, maybe much more, trouble.

Banned from Twitter? Twitter has their own rules which they are absolutely in their right to enforce. Of course we can all keep checking on Twitter's political bias and their alleged hyporicy if we want.

I do not know if the tweet referred to below has been removed, but this non-incitement to violence was made in July this year (not by Trump)

Twitter executives last month rebuffed a request from the Israeli government to remove tweets from Iran’s Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei calling for the genocide of the Israeli people — claiming in a stunning letter obtained by The Post that the Jew-hate qualified as “comments on current affairs.”

https://nypost.com/2020/07/30/twitter-execs-refused-request-to-remove-ayatollah-khamenei-tweets/

Shouldn't it be the government that decides what to censor or is it up to private organizations? Then is it upto the government to decide which private organizations have a right to operate based on their censorship pattern? Quite a slippery slope here.

A lot of problems have been caused by people thinking they were in for life. — Bitter Crank

Life, seems like an appropriate sentence for trump.

@Michael

Krakens Lin Wood and Sidney Powell gone too. And no Parler to run to. :clap: :clap: :clap:

And Finn. Also Powell is being sued by Dominion.