I found it amusing that you googled the philosophy of disasters and found my name. However, in a way I am not that surprised but that is why I try to be a bit careful how much personal information I disclose. I don't want to create a pseudonym, so I just try to make sure that I can stand according to what I write.

On a more serious note, I do worry at times that it is the end times of history. What is worse is that if belief in this becomes a self'fulfilling prophecy. I think that the idea of the end of history was a core part in the arms race, especially some American strands of Christianity. Really, I think that we are at a crossroads and we, as a collective force, may determine the fate of humanity. I find this scary. Of course, the leaders play a key role but perhaps what each of us thinks and does is important too. Perhaps we are all like individuals cells in a gigantic organism and no one can say how much influence one has in the grand scheme.

I have edited my title because the thread began with the pandemic and has looked at that on a general level of impacting on our lives and the personal experiences of disaster, because I do believe that this is significant too. I don't expect you to have to read back necessarily but just wish to say that the emerging theme is the question of the fate of humanity at this time in history. Where are we going and how much do we play a part in determining this? So, I just added to the title in case people are interested in this question at all, and I really did not wish to start another thread.

I found it amusing that you googled the philosophy of disasters and found my name. However, in a way I am not that surprised but that is why I try to be a bit careful how much personal information I disclose. I don't want to create a pseudonym, so I just try to make sure that I can stand according to what I write.

I got a different response to my google search this time and the subject is very complicated and because it involves governing the people, it might be something that interests you.

On a more serious note, I do worry at times that it is the end times of history. What is worse is that if belief in this becomes a self'fulfilling prophecy. I think that the idea of the end of history was a core part in the arms race, especially some American strands of Christianity. Really, I think that we are at a crossroads and we, as a collective force, may determine the fate of humanity. I find this scary. Of course, the leaders play a key role but perhaps what each of us thinks and does is important too. Perhaps we are all like individuals cells in a gigantic organism and no one can say how much influence one has in the grand scheme. — Jack Cummins

I did a different google search and got a different result. The link explains a disaster philosophy could shape government policy and that means a possible career choice for you.

Philosophy and Disaster
Posted on April 2006
Naomi Zack

ABSTRACT: Philosophers have traditionally written from the perspective of ordinary people and they are as vulnerable to fear as other members of the public. Academic philosophers can contribute to the multi-disciplinary field of homeland security and disaster studies through extensions of social contract theory from political philosophy, and applications of moral systems. The idea of a state of nature is relevant to government’s role in disaster preparation, response and planning, because disasters often result in a second state of nature. All three of the main ethical systems of virtue ethics, deontology, and consequentialism, are relevant to disaster-related situations in ways that suggest the importance of being able to combine all three. Both the applications of political philosophy and moral theory can be augmented by John Rawls’s idea of distributive justice and Jean-Jacques Rousseau’s idea of the common good. Finally, the inevitability of human mortality, as emphasized by existentialist philosophers, can create a wider perspective on disaster.
https://www.hsaj.org/articles/176 — Naomi Zack

Getting in touch with our mortality and facing a disaster as big as this pandemic may change us. But we need to think beyond the disaster itself. I think one reason we are prone to war is we don't really grasp the reality. History calls men who lead senseless wars "Great" and they have been honored and children have been encouraged to play war games. I wonder how we may have evolved if women wrote philosophy and history? When women write of war it is not the story men write. Here is an example of how a woman wrote of war...
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/06/books/review/war-how-conflict-shaped-us-by-margaret-macmillan-an-excerpt.html

So in a pandemic, might the experience be different if women have power? I certainly think so. Many women have power today, and not since Roosevelt has the federal government of the US done so much to help citizens. Roosevelt's wife had a strong influence on him. When Bill Clinton gave his wife political power, he was perceived as weak, and she had to stop being so public about her participation in the policies her husband was working on. The US has not been accepting of a woman or person of color in the presidency. This appears to be changing and how the US is responding to this crisis is new for us.

Yeap the subject can be complex. And Jack, I think what is happening could be controlled by forces out of our control. It could have direction and purpose. I just like the New Age story a whole lot better than the Christian one.

I think that the whole state of crisis is of concern, not just the US. Please don't take this as a personal criticism, because it applies to many threads on the site which focus on America more than any other aspect of the world. America is a superpower but it is not the only one.

I am interested in the idea of the New Age more than conventional Christianity but we need to understand the movement in its historical context. It has some roots in Christianity and also a basis in Eastern philosophy. In a way it is utopian, but I think that the term is becoming a bit outdated because people became disillusioned with it. In the New Age movement there was the whole idea of moving from the age of Pisces to that of Aquarius. I do embrace this idea but I think that many people on this site may regard such an idea as mystical jumbo.

I think that we are best focusing on possible ways forward independently of labels and we don't really know, in an ultimate sense if the idea of the age of Aquarius is real objectively. However, going into Joseph Campbell's thinking we could say that it is certainly a mythic truth.

Obviously, I am going into the realm of speculation that fantasy, but I am wondering what mythic visions can take us beyond the mess we are in? I think that this applies on the personal and collective level. I am not saying that this is more important than the political, economic and social dimensions of life but I do believe that all these matters are deeper than what is apparent in the media. I am just wondering as an idle dreamer and when I added to the title this evening it was my call to the universe for some gems of wisdom to emerge from possible hitherto unexpressed ideas of members of the forum.

I think we largely know what to do. Only a few details are wanting. The problem is convincing the masses to go along with the solution. Look at the pandemic response. It exemplifies this perfectly.

How do we feel when we see wealthy and privileged people who ignore travel restrictions because the are accustomed to the rules not applying to them? Not all of these people are on the Right wing. There are many people who would watch the world burn if it would advance their careers in every place and every walk of life. There's no ideology which exempts you from also needing to consciously choose to be a good person.

Now I'll address the other side of the coin. I think it's even impossible to discuss the issue of disaster preparedness in an honest way without addressing the issue of Right-Wing recalcitrance. These are the people who are hardest to convince. The weak point of the right wing is the poor, white male. All efforts by liberals should focus on appealing to these voters. But most of us won't accept that because we are committed to thinking which is heavy with themes of appreciating other cultures, intersectionality, and the like. We must be honest with ourselves and realize that such thinking is useless and serves no purpose in staving off the impending crisis.

Seriously it should be obvious to everyone that the God of Abraham religions are divisive and leading us to the last days. We may not wear masks, but Israel is ignoring the wisdom of respecting Palestinians and working with them for peace, dragging all of us into wars and possibly the final war. Seeing the world today and believing we are in the last days, could make this the last days. But the Greeks saw life as a fire and that someday the fire would be greater than what is left to consume. Human values and science are very important right now. — Athena

Yeah, at the very least, we should try to learn as much as we can so that we don't keep making the same mistakes.

Where are we going and how much do we play a part in determining this? — Jack Cummins

I guess this is really what's it's all about. How we're dealing with this worldwide phenomenon will be a precursor to how we deal with subsequent problems that will affect mankind. The more we cooperate and listen to the science, the better off we'll be.

The last thing we need is to allow extreme conspiracy culture to affect our decisions. We need to develop a culture that's more reliant on factual, verifiable data.

With regards to information, I do think that we are in a crossroads.

We're already seeing the danger of allowing unverified information to be passed around so easily.

I am not sure that we do know what to do exactly, but you make some good points. As far as the pandemic is concerned, even if people follow guidelines, it is not that simple to get rid of the virus. This is made clear by the whole problem of mutant strains. I live in London and we are now in a state of emergency. There were probably people not following guidelines but it is too easy to point fingers at people. The main problem seems to have stemmed from a mutant strain of the virus which seemed to arise in Kent. The virus is an entity in itself and it is unknown. All the guidelines are only guidelines because we are dealing with an unknown variable. We have lockdowns but they may only delay contagion and we don't know if the vaccines are going to overcome the mutant strains and how long they will last.

Generally, you speak of the need to be a good person. I am not denying the importance of that intent. However, there is not a clear definition of what a good person is. We had 2000 years of people trying to apply the ethics of Christianity in Western culture and look how that has ended up.

You also point to the political system and of course that is essential. But that is such a contentious area, as evident by all the heated debate. I am not sure that the whole debate between left and right even gets to depths of the problem any longer. I would say that the ecologists are making important critiques, but applying them in the context of the current predicament is a major hurdle.

I may come across as a bit grim, and I do get depressed about the whole mess we are all in. I would say that I struggled between pessimism and optimism in the first place. However, I think that what the pandemic has done is that it has put all problems under the magnifying glass. Some people may ask, amidst the overwhelming bleakness hanging over us, should we just give up? I think that this belief is the reason why mant people have become so self''-centred. Being overwhelmed and feeling powerless is a the biggest danger is a big hurdle we have to overcome, as part of the process beginning to make positive changes.

I agree with you that we need science to come up with answers. We also probably need wisdom. With conspiracy theories, if taken concretely they lead us to a deadend. But I do have to admit that they raise questions. I have wondered at times if the Covid_19 virus could be germ warfare, especially in the wake of new strains arising in different parts of the world. Right at the beginning I wondered about the whole tension between China and America. I am not saying that I do believe that it is germ warfare but perhaps conspiracy theories do raise some interesting questions.

I have always maintained that the only conspiracies are conspiracies of human greed and conspiracies of human stupidity.

I agree that greed and stupidity are problems and probably a lot of people don't have the motivation to overcome them. Do you have any ideas on how they can be addressed on a collective level because I am not sure that education or politics even addresses them fully.

I think that a significant part of the de-stabilization in our world (that precipitates unfortunate responses from individuals) comes from unregulated capitalism. Large corporations, following their nature, just naturally apply pressure upon governments and through media. This ends up recruiting a lot of dissatisfied individuals to get behind the corporate agenda.

I think rather than try to reconcile disparate ideologies we should just focus on a pragmatic governance platform oriented around reducing national debt, for example. Then the number one opportunity for large gains in that direction is through progressive regulation of corporations. Take away their privileges and make them accountable. I think that is the key to stabilizing both the economy and society.

Do you think that the pandemic will have any impact on capitalism? I have wondered if it will make an even greater divide between the wealthy and the poor, or whether it could cause such chaos, to make money obsolete. Have you any view or ideas about this?

Do you think that the pandemic will have any impact on capitalism? I have wondered if it will make an even greater divide between the wealthy and the poor, or whether it could cause such chaos, to make money obsolete. Have you any view or ideas about this? — Jack Cummins

I think practically everything that happens tends to increase the divide between the wealthy and the poor, Jack. That's the trend that we have to start reversing.

I have no beef with capitalism per se, but it has to be regulated, just like everything else in this world. Otherwise it just becomes an outlet for the most materialistic of human motives.

I think the pandemic is potentially a huge wake-up call. If we somehow manage a cohesive response, the pandemic could well teach us our true power as a coordinated collective. Great things could come of that. Unfortunately I see that opportunity daily slipping away.

Yes, I am not against capitalism in itself and can see the value of the ideas of Adam Smith. But, as you say, it is a problem if not regulated and materialism is a problem. I am inclined towards the view that we need a mixture of capitalism and socialism.

It is a horrific reality and problem that almost everything seems to increase the division between the rich and the poor.

I have been hoping that the pandemic could be a wake up call. I hope that you are wrong to think that the chance is slipping away. If this is not the opportunity I don't think there ever will be one. Do you think there is any hope for a better world? In saying that, I am thinking of poverty and the redistribution of wealth, but also the whole problem of ecology and climate change. I already saw on my phone today that there is a prediction for 2021 to be the hottest ever. Sometimes it does feel like the end of the world but I do have some belief that it could also be some kind of beginning of a new cycle.

Oh yeah such theories can definitely be interesting but I think we need to keep it clear that these are just theories. And true or not, they don't really help change the reality of what we're dealing with unless we give them importance to the point where we start denying reality itself (like what so many have done to the detriment of their fellow countrymen).

I think that the danger is probably when people end up really believing in the conspiracy theories and I would guess that the people who write the books really do. I have to admit that I probably enjoy some of the ideas of extreme thinking just because they stimulate my imagination to view possible alternative ways of seeing

I can confess to having a David Icke book sitting on my shelf. Some of his ideas are really way out, especially the idea that the British royal family are shapeshifing reptiles. However, he does have some positive ideas and his books can be fun to read. We could regard conspiracy theories as the soap operas of philosophy.

I think that the danger is probably when people end up really believing in the conspiracy theories and I would guess that the people who write the books really do. I have to admit that I probably enjoy some of the ideas of extreme thinking just because they stimulate my imagination to view possible alternative ways of seeing — Jack Cummins

I think we're all the same to an extent. Those things are quite fun to think about and make for some interesting topics of conversation. Nowadays though, the tone is becoming different. I'm noticing that some people are taking things way way too seriously.

Before, we'd hear some information and take time to process it to ultimately reject, accept or put it in the background somewhere. Now, it seems that some of us come in fully loaded already and so anything but anything that adds to the load immediately becomes accepted to the whole mountain of filth that's already there.

That's something to keep in mind nowadays and unfortunately, the only way to get through the filth is to discuss it with others who have opposing views. The bad thing again, we each have our mountains of filth but the hope is that since we're working at opposite ends of each other, that we'll eventually meet somewhere in the middle - where the potential reality or truth resides.

I would say that there is some tension between the ideas of truth and what appears interesting to read, or the 'filth'. I would say, generally speaking, what catches people's attention is sensation. I would say that many people are not interested in reading or thinking about where humanity is going. I am not sure if it is because the topic is too intense or because it is just too complicated.
Perhaps they would like an easy solution and switch off when one is not being offered.

I have always been concerned with the question of where humanity is going. Perhaps that makes me a utopian dreamer. I remember speaking about the topic to a college tutor and he said that I should go off to the mountains and find some aging hippies to talk to. Obviously he was being sarcastic but I found it quite funny really. But, at the same time, the fate of humanity and the planet is a serious topic. It is a problem if people prefer discussing sensation and filth or even trivia because we are in a deep mess, and that was before the pandemic even began.

There are many people who are concerned about these questions but many are not interested. While we have spoken about reading conspiracy theory as a stimulus for thought I am not sure that many do. They prefer to see a view as concretely true or rubbish it entirely.

Sometimes I start to wonder if there is something wrong with me for grappling with issues as I do. Well meaning people have often told me to 'get a life' rather than pondering philosophically. However, now we cannot go out much anymore because it is as if the world is shutting down. In a conversation on this thread recently someone said that it seems that the chance of the pandemic as a wakeup call is passing us by. It makes me think of an album title by Metallica, 'Hard-wired to Self Destruct'. I wonder if this is the destiny of the human race?

I think most people were content being hung up on the practical or day to day things of their lives to be concerned of big picture stuff but nowadays I think we'll see a shift as more people's worlds are being upended by this calamity. I used to think a lot about it already and this calamity cemented my belief even more and I think that's why it's important to ponder.

It makes me think of an album title by Metallica, 'Hard-wired to Self Destruct'. I wonder if this is the destiny of the human race? — Jack Cummins

As chaotic as it all seems today, I'm hopeful that we will start aligning ourselves towards the better.

We're a global society now. We can see/record what our neighbors are doing - both good and bad. We can learn and adapt.

Again as bad as things are, humanity is slowly but surely making improvements. Compare our lives now to how it used to be during pre-biblical times and I wouldn't be surprised that people in slums today would rather live now than in the slums ancient history. I know nobody wants an impoverished life but I believe that the global help that impoverished populations get today makes their quality of life much better. I'm just guessing of course.

↪Athena
I think that the whole state of crisis is of concern, not just the US. Please don't take this as a personal criticism, because it applies to many threads on the site which focus on America more than any other aspect of the world. America is a superpower but it is not the only one.

I am interested in the idea of the New Age more than conventional Christianity but we need to understand the movement in its historical context. It has some roots in Christianity and also a basis in Eastern philosophy. In a way it is utopian, but I think that the term is becoming a bit outdated because people became disillusioned with it. In the New Age movement there was the whole idea of moving from the age of Pisces to that of Aquarius. I do embrace this idea but I think that many people on this site may regard such an idea as mystical jumbo.

I think that we are best focusing on possible ways forward independently of labels and we don't really know, in an ultimate sense if the idea of the age of Aquarius is real objectively. However, going into Joseph Campbell's thinking we could say that it is certainly a mythic truth.

Obviously, I am going into the realm of speculation that fantasy, but I am wondering what mythic visions can take us beyond the mess we are in? I think that this applies on the personal and collective level. I am not saying that this is more important than the political, economic and social dimensions of life but I do believe that all these matters are deeper than what is apparent in the media. I am just wondering as an idle dreamer and when I added to the title this evening it was my call to the universe for some gems of wisdom to emerge from possible hitherto unexpressed ideas of members of the forum. — Jack Cummins

I think there are reasons to believe we are transitioning to a New Age. Transitions can be hard and this is not the first time a transition has lead to mass violence. It has happened throughout history often as a result of technology changing the workforce and economy. "The Mayan Factor" mentions an economic collapse so I am not too worried about what covid is doing to all the economies. This is a wake call telling us we need to figure out another way to think about money and it goes with no longer being labor-intense economies.

Perhaps we should consider there was a time when all money had value because it was made with gold or silver, copper and nickel. The US took these metals out of their coins and now we have coins with no value. Paper was backed by gold and then silver and that is no longer true. I think we all are living on credit and how much we can borrow depends on our gross national product. That is pretty abstract and to avoid economic collapse we might have to take that further?

People have thought we were transitioning to the New Age before. They associated it with the Enlightenment which has greatly improved our lives. When we had electricity and lighted our streets and homes, some thought this was the New Age that fulfilled the Enlightenment dream. But that technology was not the technology of the New Age. Now it is thought our rapid communication is the
the technology of the New Age and this may be.

What China is doing with cell phone technology is interesting. The government can watch everyone and gives people points for "good behavior" and punishment follows "bad behavior" and many seem as delighted with this as a child at Christmas with a new toy. Such government surveillance of individuals is alarming to Americans but effectively is what China is doing, leading to a stronger and bigger beehive, and will it be emulated? We have allowed businesses to invade our personal computers and record our personal information. I hate the changes to my online experiences and lost control of how my computer functions but I live with them because what is the alternative? We have spoken of group consciousness before.

The New Age is a time of high tech and peace and the end of tyranny. It is a new consciousness so different from the past, people can no longer relate to the past. I think this is possible.

I think the pandemic is potentially a huge wake-up call. If we somehow manage a cohesive response, the pandemic could well teach us our true power as a coordinated collective. Great things could come of that. Unfortunately I see that opportunity daily slipping away. — Pantagruel

Whoopy :party: We have agreement. I am blown away by the US giving money to all citizens for no other reason than they are citizens and giving businesses money. I have been through a few economic crashes and this is totally different from Reagan scapegoating the poor and slashing the domestic spending to pour everything into military spending. Only during the Great Recession has the US government done so much for citizens in need. I think the way things were handled by Roosevelt was better, but maybe this new way of handling an economic problem will prove successful? The point is the government is keeping people afloat, and stimulating the economy, which is different from the past and hopefully, this works well and future economic crashes will be managed better than in the past.

Yes, I think that there are signs of hope. We obviously measure partly on the basis of what we see in our own country and we are all across the world. My own feeling is that there do seem to be some definite positive indications.

I do wonder if we had been in a different historical epoch whether we would have just had an emphasis on the survival of the fittest. As it is, there is a concern about meeting the needs of vulnerable people and many people are not being completely self-centred. Perhaps we are beginning to see the better side of human nature.

I agree that greed and stupidity are problems and probably a lot of people don't have the motivation to overcome them. Do you have any ideas on how they can be addressed on a collective level because I am not sure that education or politics even addresses them fully. — Jack Cummins

Public education is essential and using our schools and public media to transmit a culture and necessary information such as when the economy collapses, or there is a pandemic, is essential. The culture must promote life long learning and valuing science, math, and history. Education that is focused on preparing the young to be products for industry and leaving moral training to the church is a human disaster! We need to hold an idea of the ideal we are heading towards so we know where we are going, and we need history for perspective on where we have been and where we are going.

Yes, I think that there are signs of hope. We obviously measure partly on the basis of what we see in our own country and we are all across the world. My own feeling is that there do seem to be some definite positive indications.

I do wonder if we had been in a different historical epoch whether we would have just had an emphasis on the survival of the fittest. As it is, there is a concern about meeting the needs of vulnerable people and many people are not being completely self-centred. Perhaps we are beginning to see the better side of human nature. — Jack Cummins

I think we are definitely seeing the better side of humanity. I wish there were a general understand that the Christian God did not become forgiving and loving until our bellies were full. Christians were focused on a jealous, revengeful, fearsome, and punishing god. People beat the devil out of their children.

Perhaps child-rearing practices are the most important to a culture, along with the mythology that defines the culture. The best way to have an aggressive, warrior type society is to abuse children. Protecting children and making it possible for them to grow up with love and security, leads to a gentle society, and in the past having weak people instead of fearsome fighters was a shame and a danger. During hard times no one can be soft. Seriously we need to know history to have a perspective on the present.

It is a bit insane to live in the best of times and be so angry and ready to fight, as is so in the US today and I really think that is because we neglected history. If we compare our lot in life with the wealthiest we can be miserable. If we compare our lives with the past, we are apt to be very thankful and capable of believing the future can be even better when we work together for that.

Jack, sorry about my US focus but we are expecting violence in all state capitals and especially in Washington DC on the day of the inauguration of Biden. It is hard to think of anything else besides Covid and the expected violence. I don't think things are this intense in other places. The divide we have now is like the civil war divide and Trump made this so. The violent eruption was expected and it is not over.

The frustration about your emphasis on America was more related to the site in general because there seem to be so many threads on it. Nevertheless, I do agree that there are great dramas and I did see all the riots and was rather astounded. I hardly dare imagine what will happen on the day of the inauguration. It is just as much of the turbulence of the world as the pandemic. It must be extremely difficult living in America at this time.

We are in a state of emergency in London now. Of course, severe restrictions had to come but it does feel awful being hardly allowed to do anything. I am not used to sitting indoors all the time and the various rules and restrictions have gone on for so long. I know that it is necessary but it is affecting everyone's mental health, especially the isolation we are meant to endure. But perhaps we will all become stronger through it eventually.

I do wonder if we had been in a different historical epoch whether we would have just had an emphasis on the survival of the fittest. As it is, there is a concern about meeting the needs of vulnerable people and many people are not being completely self-centred. Perhaps we are beginning to see the better side of human nature. — Jack Cummins

There's evidence of early hominids caring for their elderly, their young and the sick. We also see similar behaviors in animals that live in groups. So maybe that is the natural state and selfishness to the detriment of others is unnatural because it leads to self-isolation.

Up until a few weeks ago I was under the impression that doomsayers were invariably of the religious type. Apocalpyse, Judgment Day, Day of Reckoning, End of Times, etc. all various names for the same prophesized final battle between good and evil when all civilizations will supposedly experience a downward spiral into chaos.

Well, I was wrong.

Leading scientists and some big players in global economics too have been giving the issue serious thought. A list of possible global threats has been created probably with the intent to increase global awareness of possible dangers to civilization as we know it. Here they are:

1. Nuclear holocaust
2. Climate change
3. Asteroid impact
4. Overpopulation
5. AI takeover
6. Pandemics

[The above list maybe incomplete]

There's even a Doomsday clock which has been set at 100 seconds to midnight, midnight being doomsday.

Yes, I have been coming from the view that the whole doomsday predictions are coming from the scientists and disciplines and is not just the territory of the religious. I would say it was the views of these other points of view which probably make me think outside of my own religious background initially.

I was aware of a danger of the way in which the religious expectation of the end times may have a self fulfilling prophecy and I do believe that this fuelled the development of the nuclear arms

But what about all the other ideologies?

The end of the millennium passed and even the mythic 2012 of the Mayan calendar, but many thinkers, including the scientists were thinking that we are not out of danger and one of the biggest fears is climate change.

While I am sure that the scientists fears are evidence based, I do still wonder about the role of self fulfilling prophecy, perhaps in the mass psyche of humanity. I also wonder about the whole participant observer role recognised within science. Our bias affects what we see, and how we respond. How does this manifest in reality?

It is this concern which makes me choose to focus upon the more utopian dreams, because our perceived reality may have implications for what becomes manifest in the world.

What do you know about self-fulfilling prophecies? My take on it is that a prediction is made by a seer of sorts and the person who's the key to the prediction coming true then attempts to prevent it but what he does to that effect causes the prophecy to come true. In the context of our discussion, do you suppose that any attempt to prevent doomsday will actually cause it?