There are two perfect questions. Distinct and uniqe.
1. What has been the stupidest question anyone has ever asked you?
2. Do you want to make out after this?

@Possibility It is curious to me, O Possible One, that you failed to address my second question in your last post: is Rovelli’s theory not compromised by its own self?

Whether his theory is a temporal or atemporal “event” is of no matter, for the atemporal ones, as you have said, only have significance to us in their relation to the temporal ones...and it is all a mishmash of indeterminate “potentiality”...

So, I ask again in a different way: why do you adhere to the theory of a man who acknowledges that human thought is based on uncertifiable certainties? And if all thought is so uncertain, how can we be motivated to think or act in our world?

It is curious to me, O Possible One, that you failed to address my second question in your last post: is Rovelli’s theory not compromised by its own self?

Whether his theory is a temporal or atemporal “event” is of no matter, for the atemporal ones, as you have said, only have significance to us in their relation to the temporal ones...and it is all a mishmash of indeterminate “potentiality”...

So, I ask again in a different way: why do you adhere to the theory of a man who acknowledges that human thought is based on uncertifiable certainties? And if all thought is so uncertain, how can we be motivated to think or act in our world? — Todd Martin

My apologies - time gets away from me, and life gets in the way. I wasn’t avoiding the question, just lacking the time to put together a considered response.

I haven’t said that potentiality is insignificant as such, and this is not what Rovelli is saying either. Rather, it is potentiality that IS significant (it is, after all, the structure of the universe), and sometimes more so than certainty, particularly when it comes to motivation to think or act.

I should point out that Rovelli’s main body of work is in quantum field theory - so for him it’s not “all a mishmash of indeterminate potentiality” at all. There are mathematical formulae that render our quantum predictions to think or act far more precisely than the sum of human experience - based on a rational structuring of potentiality. It is these structures of potentiality that make much of our digital technology a reality, and broaden our understanding of the universe far beyond our travelling capacity. The more we acknowledge the role we play as relative observation-events in potentiality, the more we can piece together the broader relational structures of potentiality by which we are motivated to think and act in our world.

The surprise has been that, in the emergence of familiar aspects of time, we ourselves have had a role to play. From our perspective - the perspective of creatures who make up a small part of the world - we see that world flowing in time. Our interaction with the world is partial, which is why we see it in a blurred way. To this blurring is added quantum indeterminacy. The ignorance that follows from this determines the existence of a particular variable - thermal time - and of an entropy that quantifies our uncertainty. — Carlo Rovelli, ‘The Order of Time’

@Possibility When you suggested earlier that we ought to be talking about things more pertinent to our lives, “family” as opposed to acute angles, I took it as a red herring and avoided going there...

...but now I do go there, Mr. Possible, and I find myself drawn to ask you a rather personal question: what was your family life like? Describe your upbringing, if you are willing...

...if not, then I still have a less personal, more general question to ask you related to our current discussion.

...but now I do go there, Mr. Possible, and I find myself drawn to ask you a rather personal question: what was your family life like? Describe your upbringing, if you are willing... — Todd Martin

That’s a very broad question, and I get the sense that you have some preconceived ideas already, but don’t want to presume. To be honest, the way I would describe my upbringing depends on the context of the discussion, and I’m not entirely sure what this context is that I’m walking into.

I could tell you that I was raised Catholic, but that my father was a truth-seeker; I could tell you that I was the eldest of four daughters born in the mid-70s, but that my father’s parenting style was modelled on the 50s, so my mother never returned to her career as an executive PA, and my older brother was the family’s real future; I could tell you that my father was a recovering alcoholic who struggled to control a violent temper, but he strived for a peaceful environment, and had a playful side that made family time a joy; or that obedience and a university education were our highest priorities, but the only compliment I remember hearing growing up was ‘beautiful’, and in adulthood my father’s burning question was always ‘are you happy?’

@Possibility Well, I obviously had preconceived notions of you, Mrs. Possible...

You say that the only compliment you heard as a little girl was that you were beautiful...which suggests to me that you felt under-appreciated for your intellect (?)...

Why was your older brother considered the “real future” of the family?

Finally, a dad who was a recovering alcoholic with a violent temper must have been difficult, if not painful, to deal with as a child; how did you and your sisters deal with it?

You say that the only compliment you heard as a little girl was that you were beautiful...which suggests to me that you felt under-appreciated for your intellect (?)... — Todd Martin

My achievements at school told me I was intelligent; but my father told me I was beautiful. I never felt under-appreciated, but my academic results suffered from the age of fifteen. It wasn’t so much a general under-appreciation as an acute awareness of different value systems under different circumstances, and the importance of language in shaping our perception of value and potential. Looking back now, I don’t believe my father knew how to compliment his daughters on their intelligence, just as he didn’t know how to show affection within the ‘appropriate’ boundaries of a parent. But he had a clear understanding of what not to do and say, and was guided by that.

Why was your older brother considered the “real future” of the family? — Todd Martin

Because he carried the family name (and reputation) into eternity. Fourth generation Australian, my father believed himself descended by name from Irish kings (Ruiarc), and was on a mission to restore their reputation. Incidentally, my brother approaches 50 as the only one of us still unmarried and without children - my guess is he felt the pressure.

Finally, a dad who was a recovering alcoholic with a violent temper must have been difficult, if not painful, to deal with as a child; how did you and your sisters deal with it? — Todd Martin

My father was very conscious of us not having to ‘deal with it’ as much as possible. We grew up in a dry household, and whenever his temper flared he controlled it within the bounds of ‘parental discipline’, and then removed himself from the home as quickly as possible. I remember being angry that he never acknowledged or apologised for his behaviour, but he taught us all to avoid confrontation, suppress anger, and to spot the warning signs of violence from a mile away. More importantly, he broke the cycle.

To me, the perfect question would be, what is the best way to live?

This is what I think is the problem every creature on earth is faced with solving. Many different groups of people constantly disagree about how everyone should live because they think everyone else has it wrong. Since most animals don't have the mental capacity to ponder a question like this, they simply do it. They live in the best way because they already know how. Birds build a nest, hatch their chicks, teach them to fly, and those birds grow up to build a new nest and repeat the process. Wolves travel in packs and eat prey. Ants build colonies and sustain them. Simple. Humans, on the other hand, have a problem. We have free thought. We have imagination. We can ponder this question, and so the answer is ever changing. Society is always evolving. We haven't come up with a perfect way to govern. There are wars over beliefs. When humans try to figure out what's the best way to live, there's complete pandemonium. They can't agree on one thing and do it for eternity, there's constant change. Constant disagreement.

For me, the best way to live is how I want to live and it doesn't include anyone telling me how to do it. My best life is completely my decision. That may be anti establishment or whatever but when I have to live with someone's house rules or try to please someone else I'm miserable. When I get to be a loner and make my own rules, life is pure bliss. Maybe it's a selfish rationale but it's the happiest one. The only thing that could make it better and include other people is if I had a group of friends that I don't share a house with and we can go out and do activities and I can come back home and sit alone in peace. That kind of life is pure magic. I'd prefer that over the hectic rat race and the family rules and having manners and respecting the elders of the house just because they're old.

why

@Possibility. What was your mother like? Was she resentful about having to be a stay-at-home mom and not being allowed to pursue a career?

@Ori. Wouldn’t you agree though that you already live by bowing to the common rules that the society you live in sets for all its members? In a sense, your true household is that society...

If you want to proscribe your household into the confines of your particular domicile, then, in order to follow your own rules there, you must either have no housemate, or have one willing to follow your rules.

Wouldn’t you agree though that you already live by bowing to the common rules that the society you live in sets for all its members? In a sense, your true household is that society...

If you want to proscribe your household into the confines of your particular domicile, then, in order to follow your own rules there, you must either have no housemate, or have one willing to follow your rules. — Todd Martin

Well even if I have to follow society's rules it's not like all of society can live in my apartment. I'm talking about private life. I hate when my private in-home life is governed by a roommate or parent. So I would be happy enough having a singular private apartment. I'm less concerned with the rules of exterior society because all it really is is being courteous to strangers and not committing crimes, and I can follow both of those rules without problems. I only have a problem if someone is breathing down my neck in what's supposed to be my privacy, having expectations about managing my personal life.

In addition I wouldn't force anyone to live by rules set by me because I would feel like I've become the villain I aim to escape. I would hate myself if I bent someone to my whim.

What was your mother like? Was she resentful about having to be a stay-at-home mom and not being allowed to pursue a career? — Todd Martin

Not at all - and growing up I often wondered why. But as an adult I recognised that both my parents were escaping their childhood, and together they built their ‘dream’ family life, despite never really experiencing such a thing themselves (my mother suffered ongoing sexual abuse as a child from two of her brothers and the family friend/priest she turned to for help - information she revealed for the first time as an 80 year old widow following the recent #MeToo movement). They were 100% committed to this shared vision of ‘family’, and to each other.

@Ori. Ok, Ori, so, say you have your “ideal” situation: your own private domicile, and friends that you can go out with and whose company you can enjoy, together with them, in public places, before retiring back into your private space...

Doesn’t that, first of all, assume that you must “get along” with your friends around a restaurant table, for example? Who will pay for the meal? What sorts of topics may be introduced for conversation, beyond the trivial ones like “what happened to me at work today”? What if one of them takes a greater interest in you, and wants to follow you home? What will you say? “No, lets go to your place”, so, if things get unpleasant, you can leave and go back to your private place?

Finally, isn’t it a great comfort in life to share a space with someone? When they start breathing down your neck, make sure you have a private place to go to. I am in my own private place right now, and that is why I can text this to you without her breathing down my neck...

But I wouldn’t replace her with loneliness just because she likes to breathe down my neck.

@Possibility. Wow.

Okay, so, am I correct to assume that, since your mom responded to the MeToo movement, that y’all are Aborigines?...

So, it is easy for me to see how your mom wished to create the “perfect family”, and participate in that...but, what did your dad wish to escape from HIS childhood? What was his upbringing like?

1. Yes getting along with my friends, I can do that
2. We pay for our own meals
3. I can talk any topic and not get offended
4. Oh boy, that's toasty. I'd be surprised. But I'd go with the flow.
5. Nah my anxiety isn't that extreme.
6. I don't know. I haven't shared a space with someone who isn't abusive. If that changed, it would be a new experience for me.

@Ori. Well, Mr. Ori, as far as #3 goes, I wish I could do the same and SOME ppl here not get offended...

As far as #4 goes, why would you be surprised?...

As for #6, it seems to me that anyone you might share a space with might become at least somewhat abusive at some point...after all, two ppl living together cannot agree on everything...

...but seems to me you’re speaking from fresh experience...care to adumbrate on that?

Okay, so, am I correct to assume that, since your mom responded to the MeToo movement, that y’all are Aborigines?... — Todd Martin

Wha? Apart from the fact that we don’t use that term anymore, no - my mother grew up in the Eurasian Catholic community in Singapore, the only daughter of a high level government official. Her family emigrated to Oz when Singapore gained independence in the 60s.

So, it is easy for me to see how your mom wished to create the “perfect family”, and participate in that...but, what did your dad wish to escape from HIS childhood? What was his upbringing like? — Todd Martin

My dad kept most of his childhood to himself, but I know that his own father ‘officially’ left at the end of WWII, when he was 18mths and his two sisters were maybe 3-5years old; he went to 13 different schools as his stepfather (who he always referred to as his ‘guardian’) moved around ‘following work’; he left home at 14 to live below the poverty line, and eventually turned up on his biological father’s doorstep at the age of 20. There’s a lot of what he wouldn’t say about his childhood that leads me to think he endured it rather than enjoyed it.

I have to ask what your point to all this questioning is - or are you just curious?

@Possibility. Characteristically, Mrs. Possible, the next morning, after I have participated in this forum the previous evening, I go back over in my mind what I posted the night before. When I did so this morning, I cringed: I realized I had confused MeToo with Black Lives Matter, which is scarcely excusable considering the context of our conversation, and the fact that I too have been a victim of sexual assault...though that was long ago, a one-time thing, when I was a young man and escaped my attacker...though at the time I felt as though I were fighting for my life, and it left no scars, either physical or psychological.

So, my obtuseness here does indeed betray me to be a white male...

But, having gotten to know you somewhat in this limited time and circumstance, I felt that your response to my faux pas would be primarily bewilderment...which it was, rather than indignation. I thank you for that. Now I owe it to you to answer your question: what is the point to all my questioning—and I will do so...

When we were debating over acute angles, I got the impression that you were using an opaque and abstruse terminology based on quantum theory and the postulation of extra dimensions just to escape common sense everyday recognitions. Unable to break through this screen I was reminded of something I had read before: that ppl who have suffered crises in their youth, whether divorce of their parents or sexual abuse or death of a loved one, etc, tend to adhere to one of two extremes: they either cling to some or other absolute and irrefutable view of the cosmos, or they become attached to theories that tend to make everything indeterminate...

It should be obvious in which camp I suspected you to be, and that is the reason for me asking these questions...though I must confess that, from what I have learned, you are a much more complex subject for analysis than I would ever have suspected.

Finally, my apologies—and I hope that my offense is seen as a peccadillo, not as a crime.

Finally, my apologies—and I hope that my offense is seen as a peccadillo, not as a crime. — Todd Martin

No offence taken, at all. I figured it was a misunderstanding of the hashtag.

It should be obvious in which camp I suspected you to be, and that is the reason for me asking these questions...though I must confess that, from what I have learned, you are a much more complex subject for analysis than I would ever have suspected. — Todd Martin

I’ve found that people usually are, although most don’t want to be. They want to be perceived a particular way, to be understood without having to explain themselves, and to be valued on first impressions. So they construct a conceptual identity, and then strive to emulate it. But that’s not how I roll.

@Possibility. Well Mrs. Possible, you have certainly been very forthcoming about aspects of your early life, about your parents and brother, etc...so in that way you have definitely explained yourself, unlike the most ppl you just referred to who are unwilling to do so because of the desire to make an unquestionable first impression.

...and I understand, from something I saw while walking through another corner of this forum, that you are the mother of a few children yourself (?): what I want to ask you is, how much has your parents’ longing to have the “perfect family” affected the way you parent your own children? either in style or content?

I would suspect that, as far as content goes, you don’t adhere to your father’s 50ish-worldview, but, as far as style is concerned, I suspect you want your children to be as happy as they can possibly be, mirroring your father’s “burning question” to you: “are you happy?”...

...would that be an accurate assessment?

I interpret my father’s question now as a reminder to be self-aware - conscious of how we experience the world. I noticed that much of the ‘happiness’ he sought in his own life required a deliberate ignorance or disconnect from aspects of reality, and that I inherited from my mother a host of fears that would take me years to overcome. They thought they could keep pain, humility, lack and loss out of our lives, but I think we just experience the lesser suffering more intensely.

I don’t subscribe to an ongoing state of ‘happiness’ as the cure-all - I think it’s a false ambition, but it’s also a difficult one to let go of as a parent. I think we experience the most peace, love and joy from our life overall when we acknowledge that suffering in some form is a necessary aspect of living. I’ve raised my children to understand that pain, humility, lack and loss are part of our ongoing relationship with the world: we can negotiate the structure of suffering in our experience through our level of awareness, connection and collaboration - but not its necessity.

@Possibility. I agree with you that pain and suffering are necessary ingredients of life, and I believe that was a point of contention earlier in this thread, when the OP was still around (it seems that you and I have, however, hi jacked this thread, and it must seem a bit strange to those looking into it for the first time and comparing what is being said in it now with how it began). An ongoing state of happiness, as you termed it, is impossible, and if there be an happy human being, he or she too must suffer sometimes. But it must follow, mustn’t it, that if that is true, and there exist a happy human being in principle at least, that his or her happiness depend upon something more substantial and lasting than things like physical comfort or security or pleasure (?)

Forgive me if it is not natural for me to draw the conclusion that the “host of fears” your mother instilled in you as a child must have sprung from her abuse at the hands of those whom a child most obviously can be expected to trust...yet you, as a child or even as a young adult, did not know the source of those fears. I would like to learn, if you are willing, how those fears were transmitted to you, how they manifested themselves in your soul and affected your behavior, and how you were able to overcome them.

Finally, I would be very interested to learn what impact your mother’s revelation, at the ripe old age of 80, had on you children, and the family, and it’s friends, in general. And how could she have kept it a secret for so long?...or did she? Did anyone else other than the participants know?

I agree with you that pain and suffering are necessary ingredients of life, and I believe that was a point of contention earlier in this thread, when the OP was still around (it seems that you and I have, however, hi jacked this thread, and it must seem a bit strange to those looking into it for the first time and comparing what is being said in it now with how it began). — Todd Martin

Yes, I do have a tendency to follow tangents in threads, and if the mods find this a problem, I’d be okay with separating out our discussion, or even continuing with PMs - just say the word....

An ongoing state of happiness, as you termed it, is impossible, and if there be an happy human being, he or she too must suffer sometimes. But it must follow, mustn’t it, that if that is true, and there exist a happy human being in principle at least, that his or her happiness depend upon something more substantial and lasting than things like physical comfort or security or pleasure (?) — Todd Martin

Why must it be substantial and lasting, though? If an ongoing state of happiness is ‘impossible’, then so, too, I would argue, is a ‘substantial and lasting’ foundation to reality. It’s an ‘impossibility’ we cannot rule out, at least - to do so would be ignorance.

Forgive me if it is not natural for me to draw the conclusion that the “host of fears” your mother instilled in you as a child must have sprung from her abuse at the hands of those whom a child most obviously can be expected to trust...yet you, as a child or even as a young adult, did not know the source of those fears. I would like to learn, if you are willing, how those fears were transmitted to you, how they manifested themselves in your soul and affected your behavior, and how you were able to overcome them. — Todd Martin

No, I wouldn’t expect you to draw that conclusion from the information I’ve given. And it certainly wasn’t my mother’s intention to pass on her fears. But as a young girl in a limited social circle (my parents had no active social life - they kept to themselves, we attended church on Sundays, were driven to and from school and played no after-school or weekend sports), I learned mostly from my father how to see the world, and mostly from mother (a 50s-style housewife with a habit of saying ‘wait until your father gets home’) how to respond to it. As an example, my experience of ‘the talk’ was being directed to a set of science and medical encyclopaedias, supplemented in later years by my mother repeatedly using the word ‘abstain’.

So I grew up yearning to see the world but not to experience it, whereas I watched my brother experience the world without fear, and see so much more of it as a consequence - more than my father allowed himself to see. From about 16, I decided that I needed to look more closely at the risks I wasn’t taking, and ask myself reasonably, why not? So I began to take carefully calculated risks - to put myself in situations that helped me distinguish between the real danger, what I feared and what I avoided. Little things, like talking to strangers, attracting attention, learning to swim, the dark...

Finally, I would be very interested to learn what impact your mother’s revelation, at the ripe old age of 80, had on you children, and the family, and it’s friends, in general. And how could she have kept it a secret for so long?...or did she? Did anyone else other than the participants know? — Todd Martin

My mother never told anyone after her mistake of confiding in the priest - not even my father. The world doesn’t really want to know these kinds of secrets. As long as you can keep it under wraps, not let it affect your capacity to ‘act normal’, they’d prefer not to know. She only told her children recently because she was aware that it had been a factor in her emotional distance as a parent, and she wanted us to understand before it was too late. For me, it helped everything else make sense, allowed me to forgive her and to admire her strength of character where I had previously thought she was weak. It also put other events into perspective - not least that my own brother had taken liberties with me as a young girl that greatly impacted my relationships, but were so, so minor by comparison.

As an aside, I’m inclined to believe that sexual abuse and misconduct has been more prevalent than we like to think - to the point where what we culturally consider to be ‘normal’ sexual relations have been distorted by it. I’m no longer surprised at the number of friends and family (from apparently unremarkable suburban homes) who have revealed an experience of sexual or physical abuse of some kind, and not all of them women. It’s another calculated risk my talking about it here, anonymously, but I think it’s important that we find ways to discuss its relevance in how we relate to each other.

@Possibility. Ha ha! Let me tell you a funny story, Mrs. Possible...

When I was in sixth grade my teacher was one Ms. Conrad, an attractive young auburn-haired woman on whom I developed a crush. This was the year the educational authorities had decreed that, starting in sixth grade, boys and girls were to be instructed in sex.

So, one day Ms. Conrad put the anatomical charts up on the board revealing the cross-sectional male and female genitalia, and described to us that the sperm was produced here, and the egg there, and that their combination ultimately resulted in a baby, etc.

Now, I had never been been inducted by my own parents into “the talk”, so I knew next to nothing about sex. For one thing, I was way too young: it would be another 5 or 6 yrs before I developed into a young man (which was traumatic for me, being such a late bloomer and watching my schoolmates grow hairs where I couldn’t, for example). But my curiosity was fully developed even at age eleven...

...so I raised my hand, and Ms. Conrad pointed to me, “Yes, Todd?”, and I asked, “Ms. Conrad, but how does the sperm get to the egg?”...

...you might imagine the bedlam that erupted among my classmates. There was a chorus of laughter, followed by whispers among groups of girls who laughed and smiled and glanced at me. Barry Draughn, a country boy who sat directly behind me, poked me in the back: “Todd, haven’t you ever seen chickens do it?”

But worst of all was Ms. Conrad’s reply: “You’ll just have to ask your parents,” she said with a smile.

I had a lot more to respond to your post, but I have taken all my time responding to what “the talk” reminded me of, so I will answer more fully later. I hope this reminiscence entertained you.